103090 CC WS Min
CITY OF SHOREWOOD
CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP
MONDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1990
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
PAGE 1
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M I NUT E S
CALL TO ORDER
Mayor Haugen called the meeting to order at 7:35 P.M.
ROLL CALL
Present: Mayor Haugen, Councilmembers Gagne, Stover, Watten,
City Finance Director Rolek, City Engineer Norton and
City Administrator Whittaker, Councilmember Brancel
arrived at 8:00 P.M.
RECYCLING - RFP 1991
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Councilmember Watten asked about the compensation received by the
recycling firms.
Mayor Haugen said the firms are currently receiving no money for paper
but have varying rates for other materials. They keep the money for
the material they sell.
Administrator Whittaker said the City is requesting proposals to see
if the City rate is competitive with that for a joint contract. The
County reimburses the City for 80% of the cost. The current cost per
household is just over $2.00 per month. The County will require the
City to pick-up additional types of material by January 1, 1991.
Councilmember Stover said a pre-set goal must be reached.
Councilmember Gagne said the City should continue to use the current
recycler, if their price is lower.
Stover asked when they would find out about the price. The proposals
are due Nov. 5, 1990 and a meeting will be scheduled to review the
proposals early in the week.
Stover asked if the County requires waste haulers to be licensed.
Whittaker said they did.
WATER TREATMENT PLANT
RESOLUTION NO. 122-90
A. ENGINEERING
Haugen stated that when the City received the S. E. Area well it
was a Capital Improvement. The City should be responsible for it.
When the Waterford III development is built, the City will decide
where the TIF money should be spent. She said some of the money
should be used for a water treatment facility in the S.E. Area. That
way, there may not be a need to increase taxes for the facility.
Watten said the Council needs to decide whether each individual should
provide their own iron removal or whether the City should install an
iron removal at the well. \
Haugen said the City cannot afford to install such systems at all
wells.
Whittaker said the TIF funds can be used anywhere in the S.E. Area of
the City.
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Phil Olson, Minnesota Water Quality Association
Mr. Olson said he would like to see the figures that indicate a
central plant uses less water in its filtering than individual
CITY OF SHOREWOOD
CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP
MONDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1990
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
PAGE 2
. systems. He said municipal systems must abide by a 10 State Standard.
The water treated at the point of use is not used for lawns and other
outside uses. But, City treated water will be used for everything.
Gagne said the first decision should be whether to install a central
plant or to continue with individual filtering. He said there were
many vocal people attending the Public Hearing.
Penny Vogel - from audience.
Ms. Vogel asked if the plant would have the capacity to filter water
for the entire area. She wondered about the use of water for pools.
Haugen said many pools are filled by tankers, not from City water.
Mike Pflaum - Lundgren Brothers.
Mr. Pflaum said Lundgren Bros. built 200 houses in the S. E. Area. He
has had few complaints about water quality. He asked the company's
plumber if there were complaints. He said there were a few and he had
installed in-house filters. The system was designed to last for 4 - 5
years with periodic bleeding to maintain it.
Brancel arrived at 8:00 P.M.
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Mr. Pflaum said there would have been more people at the Public
Hearing if the cost per house had been identified. He said there is a
variation in housing prices in the area and some people would feel
differently about this expense.
Gary Capone
.
Mr. Capone has 30 years in the Water Business and is a member of the
Minnesota Water Quality Association.
He said the point-of-use should be the point of treatment; what is
treated today can change and the treatment and maintenance will also
change. Once a municipal system is installed, the City is stuck with
it. Capone said he could install an iron removal system for as little
as $200 with a cost of up to $1000.00 for a softening system.
Stover asked if a person would have to purchase a new system every 5
years. Capone said the housing would last longer but the screen would
have to be replaced for approximately $30.00.
Whittaker asked how much the system would filter from 2 parts/million.
Capone said it would reduce iron to .03 PPM. He said a person can
rent filter systems and some automatic systems that can be more
expenSIve.
Watten asked about current attitudes toward receiving softened water
at the house.
Capone said it is controversial. Softened water would, then, be used
for lawn sprinkling and fires. There is also an additional sodium
content in softened water.
Stover asked, if the aquifers are changing, would additional equipment
be needed for filtering or would this be built into the original
system?
Capone said new canisters would be needed or more frequent flushing of
the system would be necessary.
Engineer Norton asked Olson and Capone if they represented the Point
of Use Industry? Olson said no.
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CITY OF SHOREWOOD
CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP
MONDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1990
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
PAGE 3
4It Norton explained that the Point of Use Industry is supported by the
Water Softener Association.
Haugen asked Norton, if the aquifer would change making more plant and
equipment necessary?
Norton said is is not likely that the iron content would rise from 1.9
PPM to 5 or 6 PPM.
Noel Vogen, Associated Consultants Engineers, Inc.
Vogen also said that it would be unlikely that the iron content would
change that drastically. He also said that the 1000 GPM system would
serve the entire S. E. area.
Haugen asked if the well could also serve the Amesbury Area.
Vogen said it is not able to handle the fire demand for the entire
area.
Norton said it could supply the area most of the time; except in times
of fire or heavy summer sprinkling. If more water was needed, the
Amesbury pump would come on.
Whittaker said this would then dilute the softened water in the S. E.
area.
Watten asked if sediment builds up when the water is not moving in the
well tank.
Norton said the water is constantly moving in the tank but there will
be some build-up.
Vogen said a film develops when the water comes in contact with air.
Olson asked if there is iron bacteria in the lines. Norton said no.
.
Hank Christenson - from audience.
Mr. Christenson said he has not come to previous meeting on this
issue. However, he feels the residents need an answer. The Council
is going nowhere on this topic.
Haugen said the Council would like to collect as much information as
possible on the subject.
Penny Vogel -
Ms. Vogel asked who did the feasibility report? Haugen said
Associated Consultants.
Gagne said the Council has talked about this for a year. All of the
Council members have treated and softened their own wells. The S. E.
Area homes were taken off the Minnetonka water system, which has
treatment, and put on the Shorewood system. This is when the problems
started.
B. FINANCING
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Stover said a municipal system would be expensive. She wants a
system that will handle the problem efficiently.
Christensen said he objects to dividing up City services among
sections of the City.
Haugen said that the treatment system is a Capital Improvement. The
TIP money can be used for Capital Improvements.
CITY OF SHOREWOOD
CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP
MONDAY, OCTOBER 30. 1990
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
PAGE 4
~ Whittaker said that 1/2 the cost of the proposed plant would be paid
for by TIF money, the other 1/2 would have to be funded by another
source. Until there is a surplus of TIF money, another source of
revenue would have to pay for the plant.
Haugen said a water rate increase was suggested by some residents.
However, Shorewood's water rate is already the highest in Hennepin
County. She said that the rates could be lowered when the TIF money
is available.
Gagne said he would not like to raise the water rate for the entire
City.
HANK CHRISTIANSON
Mr. Christianson said the City is paying $1 Million for an
intersection at Old Market Road and the water pipes in Waterford are
rotting.
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Haugen said the Council is still gathering information on the project.
Stover said the Council has asked the Community, did a survey and held
a Public Hearing. She said there are conflicts in the input the
Council is receiving. She is concerned about the financial
implications. Stover wants the Council to be fair and consistent to
all citizens. She said the engineering opinions are somewhat the same
but she wants to know about possible changes in the aquifer.
Stover asked Finance Director Rolek to obtain information about iron
filtering individually vs iron filtering at the well.
Whittaker said the City has done surveys and come up with solutions.
The residents are telling the Council that it costs them from $40 to
$80 per month to filter their water. He said it is hard to imagine
that residents didn't know about the proposed water treatment plant.
At the Public Hearing, most of the people wanted a municipal system.
He does not feel that more information needs to be obtained.
Gagne said the Council has a Feasibility Report and should accept it.
He won't dispute the facts with the Engineer.
Whittaker said that if the cost of the project is not within the
prices contained in the Feasibility Study, another Public Hearing
should be held.
RESIDENT FROM THE AUDIENCE
A resident asked how long the engineering firm has been in business.
He said the firm could not estimate high and still be in business.
NEIL VOGEN OF ASSOCIATED CONSULTANTS
Mr. Vogen said Associated Consultants has been in business since 1952.
Brancel said the Council should either adopt this Feasibility Report
or drop it.
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MIKE PFLAUM
Mr. Pflaum asked the Council if it could be demonstrated that the
canister system can handle the problem, will they consider the system?
Vogen said this would not solve the problem in the mains.
Whittaker said this system sounds too good to be true based on all the
available information.
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CITY OF SHOREWOOD
CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP
MONDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1990
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
PAGE 5
Whittaker said this system sounds too good to be true based on all the
available information.
Christianson asked if Associated Consultants can evaluate other
systems.
PHIL OLSON
Olson said that Engineer Norton mentioned the Point of Use
organization. The Water Quality Association is also involved with the
Point of Use organization. He said the City should make an objective
decision and he would be glad to provide them with additional
information. He said that 80% of the municipal well systems don't
meet standards.
Vogen said that his firm did a full spectrum analysis and iron was the
only problem; that is not a health hazard.
Christianson said the Council should call for bids for individual
water treatment systems.
Resident asked Capone to give the Council a proposal and then the
Council can decide.
Whittaker said, in order to call for bids, the City has to draw UP
performance specifications and an have an independent firm test the
systems.
Haugen said the City has to abide by State rules. They must tell the
water treatment industry the City is taking bids for a project.
Watten asked if the City is obliged to clean up a nuisance; it does
provide safe water. He said each individual may be able to handle
their own iron removal.
Whittaker said the City often goes beyond the bare essentials.
He said the Council should ask the Engineers who they would hire to
evaluate the project.
Norton said Vogen should have determined if a municipal system was
the best way to solve the problem.
Whittaker said Vogen was not asked to determine this. He was asked to
a~sess the feasibility of a municipal system.
Norton said Vogen can evaluate both systems.
Vogen said that many people at the Public Hearing talked about the
point of use system. Many of these people paid a lot of money for
their systems and still want a municipal system.
Stover said Shorewood has different water systems. She has a problem
with providing a water treatment system for one area exclusively.
Norton said this would set a precedent in the City.
Haugen asked if the Council would like to vote on the Feasibility
Study. Whittaker said the Council already had.
Brancel said the Council could ask the Finance Committee to look into
the funding of the project.
Brancel moved, Gagne seconded, that the Council find that the
Municipal Iron Removal/Water Treatment is necessary.
Whittaker said that a performance based spec. would have to be
established for the point of use organizations and that he is not sure
it can be done for a project of this size.
Brancel said the Council has told the residents they will look at a
municipal system and they would continue to do so.
Gagne said the City has 600 people on a water system and he considers
this a municipal system.
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CITY OF SHOREWOOD
CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP
MONDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1990
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
PAGE 6
Brancel moved, Gagne seconded. to adopt RESOLUTION NO. 122-90, "A
Resolution Ordering Associated Consultants Engineers to prepare plans
and specifications for the Water Treatment plant for the S. E. Area
Water system, II subject to approval of a contract setting the fee.
Motion carried - 3/2 (Stover. Watten)
Stover said she is satisfied with Orr-Schelen as City Engineers and
wants to see their cost estimate for plans and specifications. She
wanted the motion changed.
Brancel said she would not change the motion; the Council has already
decided to use Associated Consultants.
Watten said the Council used Associated Consultants based on their
cost.
Gagne said the City can reject all bids, if costs are not In line with
those projected in the feasibility report.
BREAK - 9:40-9:45
Gagne wanted to know how to finance the $40,000 for plans and specs.
Rolek said that the Water Fund cannot finance the water treatmant
plant. The City can use general funds and refund the money when the
permanent financing is established.
Watten said the City can put provisions tying the fee to reasonable
bids in the contract before the contract is awarded to Associated
Consultants.
Gagne asked if this was done with other City projects.
Whittaker said he has not done this in other cities. He said the
Council should ask City Attorney Froberg for a determination.
Whittaker said the money for the plans & specs. can come from Capital
Improvements Funds which have been set aside for tank removal and
public works
Gagne asked Vogen if he can give a time frame for the bids.
Vogen said the City can seek bids in January and take them in February
1991.
Haugen asked Whittaker if there is money for this project.
Whittaker said there is money but it is a matter of choice. The money
has been tentatively set aside for a public works building and
$200,000 for unforeseen soil treatment at the Public Works site. The
contract should be voted on at the next meeting.
A consultant will tell the City if the soil around the underground
tanks is contaminated. The results should be known by Nov. 26, 1990.
Haugen said the size and shape of the building concerns the residents
around Silverwood Park and the Park Commission.
Whittaker said the Park Commission was made aware of the size of the
building.
Ken Vogel - Park Commission
Mr. Vogel said the Park Commission feels the addition of another
building at Silverwood Park would detract from the Park.
Whittaker said he has not had this opinion from other Park
Commissioners.
Haugen said the Council will wait for the Attorney's opinion on the
contract for plans and specs. before a decision is made.
Vogen said he has not worked under such conditions elsewhere. His fee
has not been tied to the prices bid on a project.
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CITY OF SHOREWOOD
CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP
MONDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1990
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
PAGE 7
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FINANCING CAPITAL PROJECTS
Whittaker said there has been a lot of feedback since the last meeting
on financing drainage projects from the General Fund.
There have been estimates of over $2 1/2 Million in drainage projects
in the City. Capital Improvements in the Parks could cost 1 1/2 Mil.
Gagne said that, as far as he is concerned, the Park Referendum will
determine how much money will be spent on the Parks.
Whittaker also said the cost for a Public Works Building could be
$600,000. There is a street improvement fund; but it may not cover
all improvements.
The Council needs to decide which things are most essential and which
things have a more specific benefit and can be financed in alternative
ways.
The $100,000 which was set aside last year for a Public Works
Building. An additional $100,000 per year, over the next 5 years, will
be needed to complete the building.
There is $63,000 per year available within the City's levy limit.
So, there is not a lot of money left in the General Fund. . If these
projects are financed out of the General Fund, many more people will
want their drainage projects done.
Stover said many developments have already paid to solve their water
problems and may not approve of a City-wide tax to finance ddrainage
improvements in other areas of the City.
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FINANCING SURFACE WATER DRAINAGE PROJECTS
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Haugen said she thought it was decided to use Special Taxing Districts
to finance drainage projects. She wanted to know if the Council-
members have changed their minds.
Gagne said he has not changed his mind but he is open for discussion.
Gagne said there is no problem now on Glen Road; but, there will be
when the water levels return to normal. He wants to know how the
City can prove benefit to each property.
Whittaker said it is hard to prove benefit with drainage problems.
Gagne asked what will happen when a future Council decides to finance
these projects City-wide.
Brancel asked what would happen if other problems occured in these
districts. Whittaker said the Council could order additional projects
in the same district after a 429 process.
Whittaker also said these districts can only be used to solve drainage
problems.
He said that every time the Special Taxing Districts are used, the 429
process must be followed. The tax is based on the tax capacity of the
property. There is some relation to benefit.
The law has been in existence since 1973. A person can only be in one
Special Taxing District.
Stover said the City will ultimately be divided into many taxing
districts. She asked how the Council decides when to do a project.
Whittaker said State law provides that if you do not have 35% of the
people with frontage petitioning for a project, then YOU need a 4/5
vote of the Council to order the project. The current drainage
prOblems were not petitioned. These projects will require 4/5 vote of
the Council to order.
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CITY OF SHOREWOOD
CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP
MONDAY, OCTOBER 30. 1990
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
PAGE 8
Whittaker said there is also a City policy for petitions; at least
51% of the property owners must petition.
Watten asked which areas of Shorewood are most susceptible to drainage
problems.
Norton said there is no specific part of town, there are many areas.
Brancel said there were draintiles in the City, but many were
destroyed when the City sewer was installed or new homes were built.
Norton said the Shorewood Oaks - Strawberry Lane area has a high water
table.
Watten said the Special Taxing Districts will segment the City. He
said the idea is not equitable, assessments for drainage should be
spread throughout the City.
Haugen said the Council must decide how to draw the boundaries of the
districts.
Gagne asked if the Council wants to be involved in every decision
concerning the Taxing Districts.
Watten said maybe the City should be divided into larger segments,
such as wards.
Stover said it is not defensible to tax an area for drainage problems
they do not contribute to.
Whittaker said the new developments have paid large amounts of money
to solve drainage problems.
Gagne can't agree with using the General Fund for drainage problems.
Haugen said if there is no change in the Council's opinions, then
there will be no change in the policy.
DEBRA FARRELL
Mrs. Farrell said these districts have already been defined as
watershed districts. The Council is defining them for tax purposes.
BOUNDARY POLICY
Whittaker said that the City of Plymouth states that every parcel
which is in the subwatershed boundary, no matter what percentage, is
in the district 100%.
Whittaker said that, in his opinion, if the majority of the covered
surface of the lot is in the district, then the property is in the
district 100%.
Brancel asked if this is done by a topographical map. Norton said it
is.
Whittaker said the Council needs to make choices. He says it needs to
be done and the boundaries are fairly obvious.
Stover said they should define either the covered surface or lot area
in the district but not both.
Brancel moved. Gagne seconded, to adopt a policy that if 50% of a lot
is in a subwatershed, then the whole property is in the Special Taxing
District.
. Motion carried - 5/0
Whittaker said the Council should determine a date and time for the
Public Hearing for Shady Hills.
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CITY OF SHOREWOOD
CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP
MONDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1990
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
PAGE 9
RESOLUTION NO. 123-90
Watten moved, Stover seconded, to adopt RESOLUTION NO. 123-90 "A
Resolution ordering a Public Hearing on the Feasibility of the Shady
Hills Drainage Project on Nov. 26, 1990 at 9:00 P.M."
Motion carried - 5/0 on a roll call vote.
Gagne asked about the Glen Road project. Norton said he has heard
nothing. Haugen said she will call the Watershed District.
Gagne said the City should leave the Minnehaha Creek Watershed
District out of any further drainage projects.
Whittaker said the City should design the project and ask them for a
permit rather than asking them to design the project.
Whittaker said the proposals for boundaries will be ready on Nov.
13th.
Rolek said there will be a budget hearing on Nov. 26th; so the Public
Hearing on the Glen Road project will have to be on Dec. 10, 1990 at
8:00 P.M.
RESOLUTION NO. 124-90
Gagne moved, Stover seconded, to adopt RESOLUTION NO. 124-90 "A
RESOLUTION ordering a Public Hearing on the Feasibility of the Glen
Road drainage project on Dec. 10, 1990 at 8:00 P.M."
Motion carried - 5/0 on a roll call vote.
Whittaker said the Council should establish the District for Shady
Hills on Nov. 13th and the district for Glen Road on Nov. 26th.
Norton said the taxing district that was published identifies a larger
district than is going to be taxed. It needs to be clarified.
Haugen asked if there were any further questions.
Whittaker said the Council should reschedule the Public Hearing on the
Church Road Feasibility Study. There has been no feedback from the
residents.
Watten moved, Gagne seconded, to reschedule the Public Hearing for the
Church Road Feasibility Study to Dec. 10, 1990 at 9:00 P.M.
Motion carried - 5/0 on a roll call vote.
EXCELSIOR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN
Stover moved, Watten seconded, to advise the Metropolitan Council that
the City of Shorewood approves the Excelsior Comprehensive Plan
Amendments.
Motion carried - 5/0.
CONSENT AGENDA
Stover moved, Gagne seconded to approve the following Consent Agenda.
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CITY OF SHOREWOOD
CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP
MONDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1990
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
PAGE 10
A. Temporary Sign Permit
Applicant: Mark Steine
Location: Shorewood Shopping Center.
Motion carried - 5/0.
MN/DOT PLANS FOR T.H. 7/CHRISTMAS LAKE ROAD INTERSECTION
Whittaker said the State has submitted 5 alternatives for the
Christmas Lake Road/HwY 7 intersection.
Norton said none of the alternatives are agreeable to Greenwood.
Stover asked when the City can comment on the proposals.
Whittaker said the State will hold a Public Hearing Nov. 14th.
He would like to have Norton comment on the plans.
ELECTION CANVAS
Whittaker asked if the Council wants to meet earlier on Nov. 8 for the
election canvas. The Council said no.
STOP WORK WATERFORD III PLANS
Whittaker said there has been no deposit for Engineering fees from
Sherman-Boosalis yet. The staff said that no work should start until
the funds are deposited and he had ordered OSM to stop work on the
plans & specs.
He said a Spring construction start may not be possible without this
deposit.
Whittaker also advised the Council he would be late for the Nov. 13,
1990 meeting as he had a meeting at the MJHS at 7:00 P.M.
ADJOURNMENT
Brancel moved, Gagne seconded, to adjourn the meeting at 11:05 P.M.
Motion carried - 5/0
RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED
Katie Snyder
Recording Secretary
ADMINISTRATOR/CLERK LAURENCE E. WHITTAKER
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