Loading...
030798 CC WS Min . . . r '_ _~ . CITY OF SHOREWOOD CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION MEETING SATURDAY, MARCH 7, 1998 COUNCIL CHAMBERS 5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD 8:30 A.M. MINUTES 1. CONVENE CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION Mayor Dahlberg called the meeting to order at 8:30 a.m. A. Roll Call Present: Mayor Dahlberg; Councilmembers O'Neill and Garfunke1; Planning Commissioner Champa; Planning Director Nielsen and Engineer Brown Absent: Councilmembers Stover and McCarty B . Review Agenda The agenda was approved as presented. 2. DISCUSSION OF WETLAND ISSUES WITH FRANK SVOBODA Mr. Svoboda, a resident of Shorewood, is a consultant for Natural Resources Services. Councilmember O'Neill raised the issue of NURP ponds and inquired relative to the life expectancy of a NURP pond as well as the maintenance that is required. Mayor Dahlberg asked whether NURP ponds are actually effective. Mr. Svoboda explained the purpose of the pond is to act as a stilling basin. The water runs into the basin and the new water displaces the old water, which is clean, so the sediments are settled out in that pond prior to a new flow of water coming in. The size of the pond is related to the area of watershed. The treatment efficiency range is from 60 to 80 percent if the pond is designed mathematically appropriate. Mr. Svoboda further explained many of the ponds are not designed according to the mathematical concepts, therefore, it is not likely the maximum treatment potential is achieved. Brown stated from a developer's standpoint, the developer is attempting to fit lots in according to current ordinances and the left over land is used for purposes of the NURP pond. He stated theoretically, a NURP pond would be 200 to 300 feet long for an average site, however, in reality, alterations are made to the pond to make it fit the site. Mayor Dahlberg stated this raises the question of whether or not NURP ponds are aesthetically . feasible. If they are not going to be installed on a disciplined basis, perhaps there are alternatives which should be investigated. Mr. Svoboda explained people have a desire to preserve open space and to have ecologically and environmentally sensitive developments, however, the developers are unsure the marketplace in Minnesota is suited for that type of development. . . . ~ "' ... CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION MINUTES MARCH 7, 1998 - PAGE 2 Mayor Dahlberg suggested every time a development is planned, a large area of green space could be designated. When a development is planned, the hardcover would be reduced, the roads narrower, there would be no curb and gutter and a development would be required to have a laro-e natural green space area. He acknowledged this would be an expensive approach. 0 Mr. Svoboda felt there would be several ways to accomplish this. One would be to obtain developer concessions to allow higher density to concentrate the units on a smaller area and preserve the other part. The second approach would be that rather than density credits, there would be financial incentives to compensate for the high cost of land. Councilmember O'Neill pointed out the fact that Shorewood is almost 90 percent developed. He asked if Mr. Svoboda would have any suggestions for a community which is developed. Councilmember O'Neill also raised the issue of the roads, noting the City will begin installing drain tile under the roadways, rather than curb and gutter or ditches. Mr. Svoboda stated the use of curb and gutter would concentrate all of the runoff, however, when using a drain tile system, the problem in lessened in that the sediment remains trapped on the surface and only the water is draining. He felt nutrients would be entrapped in the upland portion, resulting in the delivery of a much cleaner water supply down to the area in which the water is pumped. Water quality having been addressed, the only issue remaining would be water quantity which will also have been lessened through dissipation across the upland landscape. Mr. Svoboda felt the use of drain tile rather than curb and gutter to be an interesting and creative solution. Planning Director Nielsen expressed concern that although the drain tile will be helpful, he felt this to be a subsurface solution rather than a surface solution. Mr. Svoboda stated this will depend on the soil type. Engineer Brown presented a diagram depicting the installation of the drain tile. He did not feel the drain tile life expectancy would be as long as the roadway. However, it is expected the use of a drain tile will expand the life of the roadway substantially. Brown felt the roadway would have a life expectancy of 30 years, while the drain tile life expectancy would be approximately 18 to 20 years. Mr. Svoboda stated using this approach, the life expectancy of the ponds would be increased. They currently have a life expectancy of approximately five years without maintenance. They are no longer able to remove phosphorous because they are phosphorous saturated. At that point the accumulated sediment would have to be removed. Planning Commissioner Champa asked what the standard would be for NURP ponds so the City can assess what condition the existing ponds are in. Mr. Svoboda explained the standard which exists is the one promulgated by the PCA. There are different uses for different water bodies and standards established in that regard. Wetlands are nonuniform, particularly in urban settings, given the variety of landscapes. Each of those settings have different wetland components, therefore, it would be difficult to develop a statewide standard. . Mr. Svoboda pointed out that even within Shorewood, there are two different types of communities. The east is highly urbanized and the west is much more rural. Urban land uses, animal waste, lawn fertilizers, automobile pollutants, salt and sand for street maintenance are all factors which would have to be taken into consideration. Mr. Svoboda stated there are very few high quality wetlands in existence. Councilmember O'Neill reported the Planning Commission had been in favor of continuing to support the wetland studies which have been completed by the Minnewashta School. This would provide ongoing information to the City relative to the condition of the wetlands. . . . CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION MINUTES MARCH 7, 1998 - PAGE 3 Mr. Svoboda stated focus has been significantly centered on the protection of wetlands, and a great deal of effort has been expended to preserve wetlands which are not functioning. He felt wetlands should be looked upon as only one element of the landscape and the issue of landscape management needs to be addressed from a community planning perspective rather than avoiding the wetlands, saving the trees and developing everything that remains. Mr. Svoboda explained there is a list of functions which are attributable to wetlands, however, uplands are equally important from the standpoint of ground water recharging. If an upland is vegetated with trees or grass or something which allows the water to move downward, the upland is equally or more important as a source of ground water than a wetland area. Commissioner Champa raised the issue of hardcover and asked if there is a way to still allow water to drain through the ground. Mr. Svoboda felt there to be two solutions. One would be to retrofit the existing conditions and the other would be to approach new projects as they are coming in. Standards which should maybe be considered would be limiting the percentage of hardcover per given lot. Another option which is utilized by Wayzata was to establish an ordinance limiting the amount of phosphorus which is delivered off of a property. Councilmember O'Neill explained a stormwater management plan will be undertaken by the City and asked if Mr. Svoboda would be willing to comment throughout the process. Mr. Svoboda stated he would be willing to do this. Councilmember O'Neill inquired whether there would be interest on the part of the Watershed District in assisting the City in working on the wetlands issue and restoring the water to where it naturally was. In addition, Councilmember O'Neill inquired what the City should be doing to resolve some of these problems. Mr. Svoboda was uncertain whether the Watershed District would be willing to work with the City in this regard. He suggested this matter be approached by educational methods to increase the awareness of the residents. Councilmember O'Neill suggested Mr. Svoboda write some articles for the newsletter. Mr. Svoboda stated he would be willing to do this. Engineer Brown stated he presented the financial aspects of curb and gutter at a previous work session. He explained curb and gutter has merit from a financial and technical standpoint, however, he does not feel curb and gutter is the only alternative. Brown felt the more important issue to be what to do with the water if curb and gutter are not utilized. He asked what would be an ecologically responsible cross section. Mr. Svoboda stated looking at the issue from a landscape management perspective, the entire landscape should be used for management. Mayor DaWberg stated this is a systematic integrated process. He was in agreement with Mr. Svoboda in that the community must identify what it is going to be. He felt there should be one model which is utilized. (Mayor DaWberg left the meeting at approximately 9:45 a.m. to attend a prior commitment.) Commissioner Champa felt it important to begin citizen education on this issue. Councilmember O'Neill noted his agreement. Mr. Svoboda suggested creating an informational brochure which would address various environmental issues. Commissioner Champa felt education on this matter should begin at the elementary school level. Mr. Svoboda felt this would be beneficial. Brown felt there to be many organizations which would welcome a speaker to address these types of environmental issues. . . . CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION MINUTES MARCH 7, 1998 - PAGE 4 Brown stated there are many issues to be addressed relative to phosphorus. He explained there are some aspects of the ponds which do work. The question is how to make the ponds more effective. Brown stated his belief the ponds must be incorporated into regional plans for stormwater ponds. Commissioner Champa inquired whether there are treatments available which would effectively treat phosphorous. Brown stated his belief calcium nitrate has been used to treat, however, phosphorus is very difficult to treat. Nielsen felt the issue to be addressed should be how to prevent phosphorus from getting into the pond to begin with. Commissioner Champa inquired whether regional ponding can be utilized without a large number of stormwater curb and gutter. Brown explained the issue would be how to manage the upland area from the regional pond. He noted his agreement with Nielsen it would be much easier to address the problem upstream as opposed to after the water has reached the pond. Mr. Svoboda felt in the overall stormwater management planning, this issue must be addressed from a landscape perspective. First, what can be done upstream of the pond to keep as much water on the land as possible and keep as many nutrients on the land as possible. This extends the life expectancy of the treatment system, both from a sediment standpoint as well as a nutrient standpoint. This needs to be addressed as an integrated system rather than the pond being the solution for a problem. Mr. Svoboda stated stormwater management plans in the past have addressed the three elements of water quality, water quantity and wetlands. He felt this to be only half of the solution. The other half would be to address the matter from a landscape perspective and manage the water from the upland before delivering it downstream. Nielsen commented there is an argument for 30 percent hardcover throughout the city. At this point, there is a 25 percent hardcover requirement in the shoreland district. Beyond that, there are no hardcover requirements. Commissioner Champa suggested the commercial lawn companies be required to use nonphosphorus fertilizers. Nielsen noted there will be an article regarding phosphorus in the April newsletter. The article includes a list of vendors who carry nonphosphorus fertilizers. Champa suggested including a list of lawn care companies who utilize nonphosphorus fertilizer. Commissioner Champa inquired whether the Council would be interested in appointing a group of people to address the issue of a stormwater management plan. Mr. Svoboda noted this has been done by way of a task force or special commission in other cities. Nielsen suggested a Natural Resources Commission. He pointed out, however, these concerns and goals need to be balanced with property rights. . . . .... f', CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION MINUTES MARCH 7, 1998 - PAGE 5 3. ADJOURNMENT The City Council Work Session Meeting was adjourned at approximately 10:30 a.m. RESPECTFULL Y SUBMITTED, Cheryl Wallat, Recording Secretary TimeSaver Off Site Secretarial, Inc. ATTEST: t . HURM, CITY ADMINISTRATOR