04-24-17 CC WS MinutesWORK SESSION OF THE CITY COUNCIL AND
PARK COMMISSION
MONDAY, APRIL 24, 2017
MINUTES
CONVENE WORK SESSION MEETING
5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
6:00 PM
Mayor Zerby called the meeting to order at 6:03 P.M.
A. Roll Call
Present: Mayor Zerby; Councilmembers Johnson, Labadie, and Siakel; Administrator Lerud;
Clerk Thone; Planning Director Nielsen; Director of Public Works Brown; and Engineer
Hornby
Park Commission Chair Mangold; Park Commissioners Barr, Stelmachers and Vassar
Absent: Councilmember Sundberg
B. Review Agenda
Johnson moved, Siakel seconded, approving the agenda as presented. Motion passed 6/0.
2. PARK PLANS AND PRIORITIES
Director Nielsen stated a few months ago a Councilmember suggested Council and staff meet more than
once a year in a joint session to ensure that Council and the Commission are moving forward in the same
direction. He noted issues invariably come down to money.
Chair Mangold stated the Commission's hurdle to overcome is Badger Park and the best way to do that is
for the Commission to meet with Council to solicit Council's feedback and to get major decisions made in
a timely manner. The Commission has always thought it was best to get the Badger Park Improvements
done together. What gets done with Badger Park sets the tone for everything else that gets done with the
parks. From his vantage point the Commission has heard multiple times that there are also other priorities
in the City that need funding. He thought that what makes the Commission unique is it is a group that has
the responsibility to look at the ongoing future of the parks. For example, the pickleball court is more than
the Parks annual budget.
Director Nielsen stated there is limited money in the Park Improvements Capital Improvement Program
(CIP) much of which is slated for improvements to Badger Park. Suggestions for parks come up such as
the pickleball court for a bid cost of $50,000. But does that get funded out of money that would have been
used for Badger Park? The tendency has been to add projects but not necessarily money to fund them.
Mayor Zerby stated that in general, when parks have been discussed, it has been done from the
perspective of highest and best use of the property. From a priority standpoint he asked the Commission
where the need is for the City's parks overall.
Chair Mangold stated from his perspective it is important to do the Badger Park improvements correctly
the first time.
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Councilmember Siakel asked the Commission to help frame the issue it thinks needs to be addressed. At
the end of 2016 the Council agreed to set aside $200,000 from the General Fund reserves for Badger Park
improvements. The final plat for the second phase of the Minnetonka Country Club (MCC) development
has been submitted so the City should receive about $290,000 in park dedication fees in 2017 and that
would go into the Park Improvements Fund.
Chair Mangold stated improvements to the City Hall campus parking lot are going to be more costly than
planned. There are large items within Badger Park that still have to be worked out; for example, what the
building should be. He then stated reconstruction of the tennis courts was not in the original budget for
improvements. It has been determined that has to be done.
Councilmember Siakel stated she thought the tennis courts were included in the original concept plan for
the Park with the assumption that would be done further down the road. Director Nielsen explained the
need to reconstruct the tennis courts became a priority much sooner than anticipated. When the contractor
last put a surface coat on the courts he informed staff that the next time the courts would have to be
reconstructed.
Siakel asked how much Council approved for the original Concept Plan. Director Nielsen stated he
thought $1.3 million.
Director Nielsen explained the Commission recently discussed if it was necessary to purchase two pieces
of playground equipment. The consensus was one piece would be sufficient and that would bring costs
down. There is no need for the building to be a warming house but there is a desire for it to have
restrooms in it. He then explained users of Badger Park, the Southshore Center and City Hall all use the
City Hall campus parking lot. Yet, the improvements to the lot are scheduled to be paid out of the Park
Improvements Fund. Maybe the improvements could be paid for out of numerous funds. There are also a
number of drainage issues that needed to be mitigated as part of the improvements.
Mayor Zerby stated if there was a desire to make all of the improvements next year the City would have
to bond for that funding. Typically Council has not had a desire to do that unless it was for a very large
project.
Director Nielsen stated the City could borrow, for example, from the Water Fund to fund the
improvements and pay it back over time with interest.
Mayor Zerby noted that the 2017 roadway projects are going to cost 20 percent more than those approved
in the Street Reconstruction CIP approve late 2016. That is a $200,000 increase. The use of money in the
Water Fund needs to be prioritized.
Commissioner Rock stated if all of the improvements to Badger Park were done in one year there would
not be any funding available for other park needs for 2 — 3 years. He then stated that three of
Commissioners are new and they do not understand why some of the projects in the Park Improvements
CIP are in there. The Commission does not think there is a better use for park funding than the
improvements to Badger Park. He asked if Council wants to finish the improvements to Badger Park now
with the understanding there would not be any funding available for the nest 2 — 3 years. He noted that the
park dedication fees for the MCC development do not all come in at the same time.
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Mayor Zerby stated a new lacrosse field has been constructed in Badger Park. There has been discussion
about parking lot improvements and playground equipment needs. There are some things that are in flux.
He asked what the Commission wants Council to approve next.
Chair Mangold stated the 2019 Park Improvements CIP includes $754,000 in projects with most of it
being for Badger Park phase two improvements. The $85,000 for improvements to the parking lot is
included in that. Creating a pickleball court for a cost of $50,000 is included in the 2017 CIP.
Councilmember Labadie stated if the pickleball court in the Skate Park is not done that Park would be
empty. Councilmember Siakel asked why that would be a problem.
Councilmember Labadie stated as the liaison to the Park Commission, she senses the Commission is
frustrated because it does not know how much funding is available. Also, the cost for various pieces of
playground equipment varies significantly. The Commission wants to move forward responsibly and does
not want things to stall. The Commission does not want to take $50,000 out of funds planned for Badger
Park to pay for the pickleball court. She then stated she thought Council is frustrated because it only hears
about general concepts. It is difficult for Council to make financial decisions when all of the necessary
funding is not there and when it does not have final numbers.
Mayor Zerby stated that Council cannot essentially write a blank check for Badger Park improvements.
Council needs to be presented with specifics costs for those improvements. There are a lot of issues in the
City that have to be addressed. He explained the City found a partner to help fund the lacrosse field. A
decision was made to take out the ice rink in the Park. He does not think Council has stopped the progress
with the Park. Over the last couple of years improvements have continued to be made.
Chair Mangold stated the Commission believes Council has been supportive. He then stated it is prudent
for Council and the Commission to have a similar vision going forward. He clarified that the Commission
does not want to push the limit on spending on the Park.
Councilmember Siakel noted the Commissioners are volunteers and Council appreciates what they do.
She stated she does not think there is a need to be everything to everyone with regard to parks. She stated
from her perspective it would not be a problem if the Skate Park sat empty for a while. There is a nice
parking lot for the community gardeners over there; the number of gardens had been expanded over there.
It is not accurate to say the Skate Park is not used. She noted she would like to make Badger Park a first
class park. She asked what the next incremental improvement to Badger Park is and what the cost for it
would be. She noted Council has been supportive of improvements to the Park. She questioned the deed
for a hockey rink in Freeman Park noting there is a rink in Cathcart Park. She does not think there is need
for three hockey rinks. She suggested reevaluating the needs for each of the City's parks.
Councilmember Johnson asked what kind of data about usage of each of the parks was considered when
preparing the CIP. He stated he lives near Cathcart Park and he has never seen a game of pickup hockey
with more than 3 or 4 players. He has never seen it seen a youth hockey organization use it. He
questioned the need for spending $150,000 in 2020 on hockey boards. He is not sure if a rink in Freeman
Park would be used. He asked what data supports the need for that. He does not view Cathcart Park as
being a viable hockey park. Councilmember Labadie clarified the rink is used by youth hockey leagues
noting her child's team used it. She stated that frequently parents of hockey team members have cleared
the snow off of the ice. Unfortunately, it takes Public Works extra time to bring the rink into better shape.
Johnson reiterated he has not ever seen the rink being used by many people and he drives by it all the
time. Commissioner Vassar stated it gets used; she works in the warming house. She explained the usage
increased after the rink in Badger Park was eliminated last fall.
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Councilmernber Labadie stated during the last Commission meeting Commissioner Rock noted that the
cost to create a pickleball court will go up for 2018. If a decision is not made about moving forward with
that soon it won't get done in 2017. She thought Council needs to make a decision about that
immediately. From her vantage point, that is the number one decision that needs to be made.
Commissioner Rock stated he thought the Commissioners want to get things done. He then stated he
agreed with Councilmember Siakel that the City cannot please everyone. He suggested people come up
with a list of priorities that reflects what items need to be done first so as not to cause things to be redone
because they were damaged when other improvements were made.
Councilmember Siakel asked if the Commission anticipates using the $200,000 set aside from the General
Fund reserves for parking lot improvements. Director Nielsen stated it is in the mix. Chair Mangold stated
it is part of the second phase parking lot improvements.
Mayor Zerby stated the CIP indicates there is more than $1.3 million in total allocated to Badger Park
from 2017 — 2019.
Councilmember Siakel stated there is about $500,000 ($200,000 from reserves and the $291,000 from
MCC park dedication fees) available in to 2017. She asked what that will be used for. Chair Mangold
stated the estimate for Badger Park phase 1 is now $600,000. Siakel asked how the Commission wants to
spend $500,000 on Badger Park, noting she does not need to know what the next phase is. She stated she
does not know what the issue is for 2017.
Director Nielsen stated he thought pickleball is a good idea; some people want it and the Skate Park is
half empty. He asked if spending that $50,000 in 2017 on a pickleball court means something for Badger
Park would not be funded.
Mayor Zerby stated he thought the $50000 cost for pickleball is adistraction. He asked what is
happening with Badger Park. Chair Mangold stated that is being used as an example. Other examples are
the expansion of asphalt in Freeman Park parking lot in 2017 and the hockey boards in Cathcart Park in
2020.
Councilmember Siakel stated the tennis courts in Freeman Park are used all the time. She then stated she
would support focusing on one project, some improvements to Badger Park in 2017. If additional money
is needed, Council and staff need to find where it can come from or acknowledge that there is no funding
for it.
Chair Mangold stated he thought a lot of the smaller items become the squeaky wheel.
Mayor Zerby noted that Council can only deal with budgets one year at a time. Councilmember Siakel
concurred. Zerby stated the CIP is a long -term planning tool; it is not a guarantee there will be funding for
the projects when the time comes. He then stated unplanned needs come up all the time.
Councilmember Siakel again asked how the $500,000 for parks would be spent in 2017. That is a
significant amount of money in one year.
Mayor Zerby stated he thought the warming house in Badger Park is going to be taken down. Chair
Mangold stated the plans include constructing a new building in a new location.
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Commissioner Vassar asked if Council is looking for Badger Park to be a destination park or a
community park. Director Nielsen responded a community park.
Councilmember Johnson stated he does not know how Council can answer that question until a decision
has been made about what to do with the Southshore Center. The City has a request for information (RFI)
out and it is waiting for responses. Hopefully the responses will provide some idea of what to do with the
facility. Or if there are no responses, the City has to determine what the value of that facility is. He would
prefer to make a decision on Commissioner Vassar's question until Council hears about the Center. He
then stated Freeman Park is more of a destination because of the high sports usage.
Johnson noted he was pleased to hear youth hockey leagues use the rink in Cathcart Park. He stated if he
was going to take his daughters ice skating he would take them to the rink in the City of Deephaven.
There is a nice warming house there and there is a Zamboni there.
Johnson stated once there is hockey in Freeman Park he questioned how much the rink in Cathcart Park
would be used. They are in close proximity of each other. Director Nielsen stated that is a good question
because one half of the market for the use of the Cathcart Park is from Chanhassen.
Mayor Zerby stated that he recently learned that Shorewood almost purchased Cathcart Park by mistake.
Shorewood did not know the park was in Chanhassen until after it was purchased. He noted that
Chanhassen has not been much of a partner since day one. Chanhassen has begrudgingly come along over
the years.
Director Nielsen noted Eddy Station in Freeman Park was built to be a warming house.
Councilmember Johnson stated he would prefer to see pickleball at Cathcart Park except for the fact that
pickleball is going in at Roundhouse Park in Chanhassen.
Mayor Zerby stated with regard to usage comments have been made that no one ever plays tennis at
Badger Park. Director Nielsen stated everyone has concluded that no one uses the Skate Park yet over the
last few weeks there has been some activity there.
Councilmember Siakel stated the Shorewood parks are about Shorewood residents. There will be
crossover from other cities. She does not believe the City has to create parks that draw from other cities in
the metro area. She does not think the traffic issue needs to be exacerbated at Badger Park. Badger Park
should be an amenity that supports the people living in Shorewood. She then stated there is a hockey rink
in Manitou Park in the City of Tonka Bay very near the Shorewood / Tonka Bay border and she questioned
the need for another one in Shorewood. She suggested trying to make effective use of the City's parks.
Councilmember Johnson stated he does not think there is a plan to spend much on the passive space in
Badger Park. There is something to be said for putting in trails and things that are not about active use.
Director Nielsen stated he thought the Park will ultimately have a lot of passive space. There will be the
picnic area and the Village Green Space. He noted the Commission has indicated it wants open space in
every park; space that is not used for anything specific. Johnson stated there is passive space in Freeman
Park; unfortunately, it is overrun with buckthorn. Nielsen stated there is a wide open area in Manor Park.
Johnson then stated that he thought constituents who are not sports activists should hear about other
things their tax dollars are being used for.
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April 24, 2017
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Chair Mangold stated the Commission has had a lot of discussion about how to use the center space in
Badger Park. The number one reason the hockey rink in Badger Park had to go was to create more passive
space (i.e.; open lawn or green lawn).
Councilmember Siakel asked if the City has received any complaints about the removal of the hockey
rink in Badger Park. She had not. Chair Mangold stated no one has come before the Commission to
complain. Commissioner Vassar stated someone asked her why it was taken out.
Commissioner Vassar stated people would go between Badger Park and Manitou Park depending on how
busy the ice rinks were. She then stated if a rink goes in at Freeman Park she thought the rink in Cathcart
Park would continue to be used. She commented people sometimes say Shorewood is a city of hockey.
Councilmember Labadie stated Commissioner Vassar has a unique perspective because she is a rink
attendant at a couple of park locations.
Director Nielsen stated he considers the rink in Freeman Park to be replacing the rink in Badger Park. He
then stated he thought Councilmember Johnson made a. good point about there being a rink in Freeman
Park and a rink in Cathcart Park.
In response to a comment from Councilmember Johnson, Chair Mangold clarified the CIP does not
include anything about installing hockey boards around the rink in Freeman Park in 2017. Johnson asked
how hockey could be played without hockey boards. Mangold stated the first step at Freeman Park was to
create a free skating rink. Commissioner Vassar stated the goal was to have that for this past winter but
the ground got too hard before that was created.
Chair Mangold stated his goal is to talk about potential CIP projects more than six months in advance.
Commissioner Barr stated she thought one of the goals of this meeting was to discuss whether or not a
pickleball court at Skate Park should be created in 2017. It had been her understanding that leaving that
open was not a palatable option. She noted it would be her preference to focus funding on Badger Park.
Mayor Zerby stated that the Commissions are recommending bodies and Council decides whether or not
to approve the recommendation. He asked if the Commission had not recommended moving forward with
the pickleball court. Commissioner ,Barr stated it was tabled during the Connmission's last meeting
pending this discussion with Council. Director Nielsen clarified that last year the Commission
recommended it and that is how it ended up being included in the CIP.
Chair Mangold stated the pickleball court was included in the 2017 CIP as an option. Based on the
feedback from Council now he thought the Commission should decide if it should push to move forward
with the court.
Mayor Zerby stated if the Commission decides the pickleball court is not a high priority that is fine with
Council. If the Commission thinks it is then Council needs to discuss that. He understands the
Commission to be saying that is not the best use of funds at in 2017.
Councilmember Siakel stated it was her recollection there was discussion about using one of the tennis
courts in Badger Park for both tennis and pickleball. Director Nielsen noted a tennis court in Manor Park
is striped for pickleball.
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Councilmember Johnson reiterated he wants to see usage data. He asked if the community garden at the
Skate Park is sold out. If so, maybe the garden should be expanded to be a better use for the community.
Councilmember Siakel suggested refocusing. The discussion should be about what are people going to
use, what is truly valued and what is considered to be an amenity. If there is a hockey rink in one park that
would be an amenity. She asked if there is something the City is missing. She stated the only place to play
tennis in the City is Badger Park. Councilmember Johnson clarified it can be played in Cathcart Park.
Mayor Zerby noted in Manor Park also.
Siakel expressed her desire to do one thing and to do it right. She also stated Council cannot commit to
what can be done two years from now. She clarified this Council believes parks are important. She again
asked the Commission what it wants to do with the 2017 funding for park improvements.
Commissioner Vassar stated over the last nine months the City received a lot of emails expressing their
desire for a pickleball court near the senior housing development.
Councilmember Labadie asked if the Commissioners thought Council has provided enough insight to
make a recommendation to Council after the Commission's next meeting.
Commissioner Rock stated the Commission has heard different opinions expressed by the
Councilmembers. The Commission was trying to look out a few years, and maybe that was not the right
focus.
Mayor Zerby stated it is helpful to have a long -term vision.
Councilmember Labadie stated she understands Council to be asking the Commission to make
recommendations for Council to consider.
Councilmember Siakel thanked the Commissioners for volunteering their time and for their efforts.
3. ADJOURN
Labadie moved, Johnson seconded, Adjourning the Work Session of the City Council and Park
Commission of April 24, 2017, at 6:55 P.M. Motion passed 8/0.
RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED,
Christine Freeman, Recorder
ATTEST:
*Sandie , City Clerk