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120588 PK JT CC MINCITY OF SHOREWOOD • JOINT COUNCIL /PARK MONDAY, DECEMBER 5, CALL TO ORDER COMMISSION MEETING 1988 MINUTES COUNCIL CHAMBERS 5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD 7 :00 P.M. Park Commission Chairman Vogel called the meeting to order at 7 :00 P.M. ROLL CALL Present: Mayor Rascop, Councilmembers Haugen, Stover, Gagne and Brancel; Park Commission Chairman Vogel, Commissione_ Lindstrom, Laberee, Christensen, Andrus and Weatherly Staff: Administrator Vogt, Engineer Norton, and Deputy Clerk Niccum. Absent: Park Commissioner Jakel. • • APPROVAL OF MINUTES Lindstrom moved, Weatherly seconded to approve the regular Park Commission meeting minutes of Monday, November 21, 1988 as corrected: Motion carried - 6/0 SNOWMOBILE ORDINANCE Haugen read a letter she received this evening from J.H. Scheu of 5460 Teal Circle regarding annoyance caused by snowmobiles. (see attached) She also said she has received phone calls regarding snow - mobiling problems from different areas of the City. Vogel stated that the Commission spent a great deal of time reviewing other City's Ordinances, and they feel the Ordinance is a good one. The problem is not the Ordinance, it is enforcement of the Ordinance. Councilmember Stover agreed that enforcement is a problem, saying the Police either cannot or will not enforce the Snowmobile Ordinance on the Railroad Corridor. Laberee said many people moved out into this area because of freedoms like this. Councilmember Haugen compared the Snowmobile Ordinance to the Dog Ordinance, saying that 50% of the people for it and 50% of the people against it, (the Dog Ordinance) it is impossible to get it all together and make everyone happy. Weatherly said she has read over and over in the minutes that if some- one got the number off a snowmobile and gave it to the Police, they would follow up on it. She asked why people can't do this? Stover said she understands Police patrol in cars and they can't go down the corridor. Late hours, around 2 :00 A.M., were mentioned, and who would be out taking numbers at that hour. -1- MINUTES -JOINT COUNCIL /PARK COMMISSION MEETING MONDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1988 SNOWMOBILE ORDINANCE- Continue . Gagne said his attitude is negative, he backs up to the tracks and has listened to discussion for 3 -4 years and there has been nothing but trouble. He also said that according to the minutes Shorewood is the only City that still allows snowmobiling on the Railroad corridor. Lindstrom said the Southwest Trail Association has really made an effort to control, regulate and educate. Brancel said because it is such a close residential area something has to be done for the residents. Haugen said she has a little bit of a problem with a 13 year old driving a snowmobile on Shorewood streets when they aren't allowed to drive anything else. Bill Kullberg, Southwest Trail Association, said the Shorewood Trail is a vital link to the entire system. Lake Minnetonka is the largest recreational area in the Twin Cities. He said he went out before Halloween and put up all their signs all the way to Victoria, plus putting up 4 large plywood signs with City of Shorewood Snowmobile ordinances. He has had trouble with vandalism to the signs and wonder- ed if it is a deliberate action to create trouble. He said it would take tools to take the signs out, besides that they were covered with grease. Council memtioned that kids can get almost any sign out if they want to. • Christensen said the new ordinance has only been in effect for one year and last year had little snow. He said the Southwest Trail Association works with Carver County Sheriff and offered to work with SLMPSD was refused due to liability. He remarked on the effort put forte by them to solve problems on the trail. He felt they should have more opportunity to make the ordinance work. Haugen asked Kullberg why he spends 80% of his time working in Shorewood He said because of problems, he is dedicated to make sure the snow- mobiles get a fair shake and has done everything in his power to solve these problems. He mentioned several other Cities and their attitudes towards the trails. He said the middle income of snowmobiles is $42,000 and a lot of snowmobilers are doctors and lawyers. He also said a lot of people live out here because of the freedom to snowmobile. He said that if snowmobiling was forbidden in Shorewood, it would seriously affect the club's financial income that they receive from the DNR. Haugen asked if SLMPSD could not patrol the corridor because it belong- ed to Hennepin County? Mayor Rascop mentioned the Water Patrol with 8 snowmobiles, but said they have the whole lake to patrol. Kullberg said the Hennepin County Parks Departmnet also has a snowmobile. Joan Lang, Wedgewood Drive, (about 40' from the R.R. if she wants to use her boat she puts it on a trailer the lake, if she wants to down hill ski she puts her and goes to the beginning of the trail. She said if Corridor), said and hauls it to ski's in her car she wants to cross- -2- MINUTES -JOINT COUNCIL /PARK COMMISSION MEETING MONDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1988 SNOWMOBILE ORDINANCE - Continue country ski it costs her a lot more, she pays a hefty amount of taxes. She said she can't ski on the trail because she doesn't know what will be around the next corner. She also said she can't send her 9 year old daughter out into her back yard to play because snowmobiles cut through her back yard, and that Sunday her only day off 400 snowmobiles go by. She said they can get another petition as they have done in 84, 85, 86 and 87, they will do so. (Records during those years show one petition received.) She also said where the trail joins the road, the snowmobiles break up the pavement and her daughter fell in a pot hole caused by this, causing a broken arm and elbow and a $450.00 medical bill. She also said they have called the police regarding snowmobiles, given them the numbers and where the snowmobiles came from and SLMPSD has told her they can't do anything. Lindstrom mentioned size of rock on corridor, saying the Commission has discussed putting down smaller rock or paving it for use in summer. He said the Park Commission is responsible for recreation for its residents, but at the same time their peace and quiet and privacy must be considered. Laberee asked if anyone has officially approached Hennepin County re- garding enforcement? Stover said she felt, in all fairness, the water patrol has their hands full on the lake and just would not have time to patrol the trail. Christensen stated that if that many snowmobiles use the trail, it • must be an important trail. He referred to Mr. Arnst's complaint, stating Arnst's complaint, stating Arnst's had said he did not like snowmobiles and no matter what was done, Mr. Arnst would not be satis- fied unless snowmobiles were totally banned, he went on to say he did not mean this sarcastically just factually. He also mentioned he had talked to a realator who felt snowmobiling added to the real estate value in Shorewood. Council asked Dan Vogt to call Hennepin County to see if they have any- way of patroling. Also to call the Railroad Transit authority to see if SLMPSD has the authority to patrol the corridor. Gagne said he would love to see the corridor used as the Luce Line is used. Mrs. John Arnst said she thought the corridor would be a wonderful link to Freeman Park. Lindstrom moved, Laberee seconded, to return the Snowmobile Ordinance to the Council remaining as it was written. Haugen asked Lindstrom if it is found that it is impossible to enforce the Ordinance if he would still feel the same? Lindstrom said the Commission would like to see the Ordinance enforced but if it can't be then he guesses it is time to change it. -3- MINUTES JOINT COUNCIL /PARK COMMISSION MEETING MONDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1988 SNOWMOBILE ORDINANCE- Continue 16 Stover said she thought there was a 'gentleman's agreement' with the Snowmobile Association relating to hours and speed, that she thought this was on a trial basis, that there wasn't much snow last year, and there were still complaints on hours, noise, speed and garbage, she doesn't believe it has worked therefore she would support Gagne's solution. It was pointed out that it is in the Ordinance, it is on the Snowmobile Association map, and on the signs put up by the Southwest Trail Associa- tion. Motion carried 6/0. The Snowmobile Ordinance will come before the Council under Park Commission Report on Monday, December 12, 1988. FREEMAN PARK Christensen gave a presentation (see attached.) Engineer Norton said on the plan that was approved by the Park Ccm -iis- sion and drawn by Northwest Associated Consultants, the road coming in off Eureka is a pretty straight road, this is the plan that was adopted and this is the plan that was used to prepare OSM's plan, how- ever the road was not put in where it is shown on the plan. • Haugen asked who put the road in? Engineer Norton said the road was put in by the City crew. Haugen asked who staked out the road": Administrator Vogt said they just followed its natural path. Haugen asked why the plan hadn't been followed? Administrator Vogt said they had a choice to make when it was pointed out that the Southeast field was not 290 a choice to straighten the road or move the field, the problem was a lot of trees and a drainage area, so the choice was made to move the field. Stover asked if the Park Commission was consulted on that? Administrator Vogt said they were the ones that pointed it out. Lindstrom said he and Christensen stopped at the Park and saw the stakes for the left field , center field, and the in- field. Lindstrom said the field was supposed to be a minimum of 275' and it looked too short. The measured it and it was 220' and the in- field was laid out in Little League measurements. They told Adminis- trator Vogt about the problem and some changes would have to be made, and fast, as the contractor was going to begin work the next day, therefore, there was not enough time to inform the whole Commission. Haugen asked, when it was discovered the road was in the wrong place, who was informed and who made the decision on what to do about it? Brancel asked if the Park Commissioner's hadn't happened by wouldn't they have ended up with a Little League field? The Park Commission agreed they were not aware the road was in the wrong place. Adminis- trator Vogt said the minutes showed discussion with the Park Commis- sion that showed they were aware. Stover said she didn't see any indication in the minutes that the road was not in the correct location -4- MINUTES -JOINT COUNCIL /PARK MEETING MONDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1988 FREEMAN PARK - continued as shown on the plan. The Mayor asked Engineer Norton if they ever checked the location of the road? Norton said he was under the impression the plan was followed by the Park Commission. Gagne asked if there wasn't some responsibility on the Engineer's part to varify that the road was in the right place? Norton said thats true but his men couldn't see that there was any difference, they observed it as a nonfinished road that would be put in the correct place. Rascop asked why the road wasn't moved when the grading was done? Norton said thats when it was found that there was a conflict and the road was intended to be left there. Stover said it seems what she'shearing is that all the other movement, the ballfields and so forth, were directly a result from the fact that the road, in actual fact, is in a different location than the map shows. If that became a problem and therefore meant you had to do some different types of grading, some different type of planning, to different other parts of the park, it seems it would be important that this be pointed out to the Park Commission - your plan as such that you originally authorized has a variance, the road is not in fact where it is, in fact what Park Commission do you prefer? The road changed to fit the plan or the ballfields moved. Without that bit of information the dumping and grading work, which they've already spent over $70,000 on, directly affected where those masses of dirt went, including over the bank. Engineer Norton said the grading was not affected, even to a very minor extent. He said the southeast ballfield was moved north to • accomodate the road but was not moved any closer to the parking lot. Lindstrom, Christensen, and Rascop disagreed. Engineer Norton said the surveyor said they moved it north but he can check on it. He said yes, a .discussion did take place on whether to move the ballfield and leave the trees where they were or take down some trees and move the road. Haugen's question was by whom? Administrator Vogt said there was a discussion, Lindstrom was present. Lindstrom said yes, he and Christensen came into Vogt's office and pointed out the mistake, saying something should be done about it, either move the road or the ballfield, but that was as far as it went. Weatherly, said it wasn't discussed with the Commission and she felt they would have made the same decision but thats the least of their problems. Haugen said this is a problem of communication and she wants these communication problems to stop. Vogt asked if this means holding up construction for two weeks to wait for a meeting? He said there are administrative decisions that have to be made all the time. Haugen said a phone call to Vogel, with him talking to the Commission and reporting back, should have been done. Vogt agreed. Stover said to Engineer Norton that the reason she was making such a point was that it made a difference in the grading and it has nothing to do with that. Christensen said he is also a registered engineer in the state and its absurd . to know where the road goes. He said moving the southeast ballfield was the right decision, but when it was moved north, it was also moved east and the buffer area for -5- MINUTES -JOINT COUNCIL /PARR COMMISSION MEETING MONDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1988 FREEMAN PARK - continue for foul balls between the ballfield and the parking lot was lost. He said he supposed this could be solved with a 12' high fence. He said when you start out with a brand new park you want everything nice, not a hodge podge deal with everything crowded together. Engineer Norton said, regarding the rocks, he has talked to the contractor and the sub - contractor, and the sub - contractor met with his inspector on the site Thursday. They understand they have to come out and pick up all rocks, they also understand they can't do that until next spring, so they will do it then. He has had some conversation with the contractor and is sending him a letter that basically says that all rocks, blacktop, stumps, clumps, branches, and inorganic material must be picked up off all the fields and disposed of off site. The acceptable level of removal of this material will be based upon quality assurance that after this work has been completed a park type riding lawnmower can cut the grass on this site without encountering any potentially damaging obstructions. If he doesn't do it there is enough money in the contract to hire someone else to do it. Norton said this is a final grading plan. The spec followed the standard Department of Transportation spec which he read. He said this appeared to be in direct conflict with what the Park Commission thought they were getting according to the minutes of November 21, 1988. Norton said that may have been what they thought they were getting ... had we specified finishing, top dressing, and the quality A gh, that you need for sodding. Gagne said in layman's terms to him finished means finished. Rascop asked Norton when he drew his specs? Norton said November 1987 and June 1988. Rascop: Action was taken after the Council meeting of May 9 where the Council directed him to provide them with a finished field, correct? Norton asked Rascop what he understands finished to mean? Rascop said a playage field you can use. Norton said this field will be capable of being used. Norton said seeding isn't the same as being sodded, it can't be used the same year. Norton also said in the same letter he is sending to the contractor he states "the entire field must be rolled to smooth out any ridges or depressions left by the mulching and discing process done last fall. If in the City's opinion aerating is required, it will be done by this contractor with the understanding that the City will either furnish the aerator or pay for the contactor to furnish the aerator. Only the cost of furnishing the aerator wil be considered an extra expense ". The undulations were discussed. Engineer Norton referred to a letter received from Widmer dated December 1, 1988. He said "on November 29th I met with your inspector on the site to look at the garding of the ballfield just north of the parking lot. I agree with your inspector that there is a notable swale. What I propose to you is that in the spring, if the City of Shorewood will provide the topdressing -6- MINUTES - COUNCIL /PARK MEETING MONDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1988 FREEMAN PARK - continue material, we will supply the labor and equipment, and will disc in the seed mixture ". Norton said they have never speed out the amount of topdressing needed, and can't do so until after the rock is picked and the disc rows are lowered and the results are seen. Vogel questioned additional expense and asked Norton if he had okayed the job done? Norton referred to the May 2, 1988 Park Commission minutes. He referred to the grade of material hauled in. Vogel said topsoil was supposed to be taken off and stockpiled, Norton said it was. Brancel said the material hauled in from Shorewood Oaks was garbafe and nobody looked at it until it was done. Rascop said in 1985 he and Gagne both moved that there be no more filling in that park, in 1987 they again moved that no more fill be allowed. Norton asked if Rascop thought that had something to do with it and Rascop said yes he did. Brancel said the City itself hauled balcktop in. Haugen asked who authorized that dumping? Norton said it was in the minutes that the Park Commission still wanted Shorewood Oaks fill. The Park Commission agreed they did. Gagne said, in the Park Commissions defense, they thought the dirt would be a little better than what they received. Christensen referred to the minutes of March 16, a memo to Dan Vogt of March 16, the minutes of April 6, and April 20th, 1987. Haugen asked if anyone in Norton's office checked the fill. He said Phil Tipka checked the fill. He said they directed Knutson to separate stumps, branches, and trees and he did. He said its not feasible for material that could be picked up by a cat or front end loader, the size of a hand or foot, to be • picked out. Haugen said the Commission has been burnt at least 3 times, maybe the Commission shouldn't accept fill anymore. Christensen said that was exactly right, all the material from Shorewood Oaks should have been rejected, not accepted. Gagne said the whole process was done too fast. Laberee said the Commission felt like they were talking into air, they repeated several times what they wanted. Lindstrom went way back to when Stewie Schmidt had 25,000 cu. yds. They knew they only needed 2,000 cu. yds. for the NE corner and only agreed to take more because Schmidt had agreed to grade it within a couple incles and put in streets, etc. Engineer Norton said a point was brought up about originally starting to bring the fill into the NE corner of the Park. He referred to the October 19, 1987 Park Commission minutes asking OSM to redo the grading plans and said thats how that area was left. Rascop asked if he told us that it would make that corner low? Norton said hes not so sure it is low. Gagne questioned if it was the Council instead of the Park Commission that accepted the majority of the fill? -7- MINUTES- COUNCIL /PARR MEETING MONDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1988 FREEMAN PARK - continue Engineer Norton said he feels there will be a playable ballfield by next year, using only the remainder of money left from the contract. Christensen said if we can go away from this meeting with the Engineer's assurance that the fields will be ready for play by next July he will be satisfied. 5 minute break...... Commissioner Weatherly left Lindstrom said Jim Truax, a man experienced in doing fields, said to do your seeding in August, fertilize 4 times, and by November you'll have playable turf. Lindstrom, a co- president of Excelsior Softball League, and the other co- president went over the field. The other co- president is the one who said the NE corner needs 3k' of fill. He also suggested if, in the future, we want a baseball field, to use the southwest field as it would require less grading and very little, if any, fill. Lindstrom also mentioned leaving the trees, referred by Engineer Norton , were not the trees in the NE corner, they were the trees between the proposed hockey rink and the football field. Haugen said this is another communication problem. Christensen moved, Bogel seconded, to recommend to Council that they • continue to withhold Engineer's pay, that the Freeman Park ballfields be reviewed the first of July, 1989, and at that time they expect a good level playable ballfield, acceptable by an expert on ballfields, ready for play subject to maturing grass, with direction only of fences and backstops, at no additional expense to the City. Motion carried - 3 ayes - 2 nayes. MANOR PARK WARMING HOUSE /PAVILION Administrator Vogt said he has the RFP done patterned after the 1986 RFP. He wants to be sure that he is going after what the Commission wants. The plan that Lepowsky drew and has been approved, signed, and checked by Planner Nielsen. Vogt asked the Commission to review the plan. He said what he would like to do would be to send out this plan, telling the architect that if they cannot build this building, following the plan and Planner's recommendations, for $15,000 - 20,000, to design us a building that is within that range. Vogt asked the Commission - -what is a complete building? Does that mean you finish the facilities? Run sewer in from the street? Run water in from Amesbury? Still want the job in the building for portable facilities? Christensen said he doesn't think the existing building has any relevance at all anymore. _g_ MINUTES - COUNCIL /PARR MEETING MONDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1988 MANOR PARK WARMING HOUSE /PAVILION - continued Gagne asked why can't we find a building with heat and a couple of satellites? He mentioned several times that there had to be some way to get around the architectural requirements because many other cities have small structures. The Commission agreed that this is what they wanted in the first place. They then reviewed the past history and the problems created due to the architectural requirements. It was suggested that Administrator Vogt put a temporary hold on the RFP, and that he check with the Minneapolis parkboard, the City of Richfield, and some other cities to see how they manage to build smaller, possibly moveable, warming houses. HOCKEY RINK USEAGE - S Christensen moved, Lindstrom seconded, to allow MYHA to use Badger and Cathcart rinks for scheduled hockey games on Saturday mornings from 8:30 am to 10:00 am. Motion carried - 5/0. MATTERS FROM THE FLOOR None REPORTS Commissioner Christensen said he has talked to Tom Barsch of the football Association. They are looking for a "home" for their Association and are willing to make a substancial contribution toward a building. They are also willing to put up lights on the football field. Christensen suggested having an architect come up with a building with a kitchen,j restrooms, and storage in the vicinity of $100,000. Other Commissioners refer to hold additional discussion on this issue first. Haugen said she would like to see the Commission start working on some policies, such as working on one park at a time or all of them at once. Rascop asked the Commission to consider two things: user fees for the facilities due to tighter future budgets, and a little more consider- ation of other than athletic areas in the parks. Haugen mentioned playground equipment for small children. ADJOURNMENT Lindstrom moved, Laberee seconded, to adjourn at 10:30 PM. Motion carried - 5/0. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Sue Niccum