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012291 PK MINCITY OF SHOREWOOD PARK COMMISSION MEETING TUESDAY, JANUARY 22, 1991 M I N U T E S CALL TO ORDER COUNCIL CHAMBERS 5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD 7:00 PM Acting Chairman Wilson called the meeting to order at 7:03 p.m. P n T,T, (A T,T, Present: Acting Chairman Wilson; Commissioners Lindstrom Vogel, Christensen, Dzurak, and Laberee; Administrative Assistant Niccum; Council Liaison Lewis and Park Planner Koegler Absent: Chairman Andrus (traveling) APPROVAL OF MINUTES Laberee moved, Dzurak seconded, to approve the minutes of Tuesday, January 8, 1991, as written. Motion carried -6/0. SNOWMOBILES Acting Chairman Wilson explained to those present that the Park Commission had already acted on this issue in November and sent their recommendation to the City Council. He said the Commission would listen to concerns, and asked the speakers to limit their time. Letters were received from Bob Belbeck, 25650 Smithtown Road, and Bill Kullberg, President of the State Snowmobile Assn. These were read by the Commissioners, and discussed. The following were present: Bob Belbeck Jerry Barthel John Arnst Joan Lang Mike Ellis Peggy Zimmerman Kent Adams Bill Kullberg Jim Schultz Bill Keeler Mike Herman Doug Swanson 25650 Smithtown Road Resident 10 Bay Street (Tonka Bay) 5480 Teal Circle Resident 5490 Wedgewood Drive Resident 6135 Cathcart Drive Pres. Shwd. Club 25650 Smithtown Road Resident 25170 Glen Road Resident Pres. State Assn. 5465 Timber Lane Resident 27420 Pine Bend Resident 5645 Eureka Road Resident Chanhassen Pres. S.W. Trails SHOREWOOD PARK COMMISSION MINUTES TUESDAY, JANUARY 22, 1991 -Page two Commissioner Lindstrom presented a message from a representative of American Legion Post #259, who asked that it be recorded in the minutes. The Post donated $5,000 to the City of Victoria so they could put limestone on the Railroad Corridor to extend the "Hiking and Biking Trail ". The Legion wished to do this for the residents of the area to provide more trail for hiking, biking, and snowmobiling. They ask that the trail remain open to snowmobiles. They state that the money they make from the snowmobiler's business enables them to make larger donations to surrounding cities. Barthel, Tonka Bay Resident, attended the meeting because he lives right next to the lake entrance used by the snowmobilers as they come off the railroad corridor. He said they are dangerous - if he asks them to slow down - they just give him the "high sign" and continue on. The police can't catch them. Belbeck said he is not against snowmobiles, but stricter rules are needed. Snowmobile riders appear to be overcome by power, the rules should be stricter - confiscate their machines -give them alcoholic breath tests -get tougher. He referred to new people in the neighborhood, and how snowmobiles rode on their property and destroyed all their new plantings. He said it would be nice to be able to walk on the trail. He also metioned that 3 \4 of the flags over the water lines in Freeman Park have been knocked down and wondered who would have to pay for replacing them. Arnst said he lives within 300' of the trail. Snowmobiles don't slow down when they pass people walking on the trail. A lot of property damage is taking place. Snowmobilers abuse their privileges, and create a concern for personal safety. Joan Lang said that she has seen 20 -25 vehicles come through after 10:00 PM, closer to midnight. She said she sat right in the middle of the railroad corridor in her car, so they couldn't get through, and told them they were breaking the Ordinance. Some would tell her "where to go" or "what to do ", and go around her. She said she can't sleep after 10:00 PM. She said someone is going to get hurt. She said you can't cross country ski on the trail because the snowmobiles tear it up. When she calls the police they just say "sorry lady ". She accused the Park Commission of "having the audacity to come up with a referendum so they can put in more trails for snowmobiles" and said they are responsible for ruining everything. Ellis, President of Shorewood Snowmobile Club, said they groom and maintain the trails. He said the police do not have the proper equipment to enforce the law. He said last weekend they worked with the police, stopping everyone coming into Shorewood and leaving Shorewood. Part of the problem is that there are not enough signs. Also, kids get hold of a family snowmobile and don't pay any attention to signs or rules. SHOREWOOD PARK COMMISSION MINUTES TUESDAY, JANUARY 22, 1991 -Page three Lang said the trail doesn't need to be groomed. She said most walkers carry garbage cans and they are the ones that clean up the trail. Ellis explained to Lang what grooming the trail means. He said, however, that the Shorewood Snowmobile Club also cleaned the trail up last fall - they hauled out two truckloads of debris. Zimmerman asked how you catch the snowmobilers that are breaking the law? She also asked what authority the Snowmobile Club has. Ellis said, on their own, they do not have any authority. What they are trying to do is work with SLMPSD to set up a "sting operation ". Zimmerman said many snowmobiles don't even have numbers on them, and if you do try to stop them, you'll get run over. Ellis said the City of Brooklyn Park has a "Snow Patrol" that gives out warnings, then gives out tickets. He said many of the people that use the trail do not know where Shorewood begins and ends. He said SLMPSD is limited in what they can do. He told those present that the snowmobilers in the Shorewood Snowmobile Club are also taxpayers. Belbeck said he had seen a snowmobile fly across in front of two cars, who were forced to slam on their brakes. Adams said safety is his biggest concern. He said he has been patient for two years, and hasn't seen any change. Snowmobilers start on the trail at 5:30 am and run until 2:00 am. He said on weekends they run 50/60 m.p.h. Commissioner Christensen said the Commission had discussed the possibility of closing the trail to all but snowmobilers for 2/3 months in the winter. Some people objected to this. Christensen pointed out that, up until about 1 1/2 years ago the trail was not usable for walking and biking, now the walkers and bikers would still have it 9 months out of the year. He said he has lived here for 23 years, and the snowmobiles have used the corridor as an official trail for that period of time. The question came up about animals and small children on the trail. Christensen said he had raised his children on the lake, and they had to be watched so they were safe. Kullberg, State Snowmobile President, and a member of the Shorewood Snowmobile Club, said the Associations are willing to work in other areas, as well as the trail. He said until more signs are put up, citations cannot be enforced. He said it is illegal... according to the Ordinance... for the police to go into the park to issue a citation . SHOREWOOD PARK COMMISSION MINUTES TUESDAY, JANUARY 22, 1991 -Page four A resident asked.... if the Ordinance is not enforceable as written, shouldn't the Ordinance be rewritten so it is enforceable? Kullberg said speed traps have been used once or twice already. The Southwest Trail Association did decibal tests two years ago. One test they did was to put a decibal meter in Lloyd Bache's bedroom..it did not register snowmobiles going by on the trail. He pointed out that Joan Lang lives approximately 1 block away from the trail, and questions that the noise is that loud in this particular instance. Kullberg said they patroled Friday. One person was stopped in the vicinity of Church Road and Cathcart Drive. They also talked to the snowmobilers at the Tonka Bay Inn, who complied when they left the Inn. He said motorcycles are not allowed on the trail due to a State law. He said a snowmobile has a centrifugal clutch, which doesn't kick in until it is going close to 10 m.p.h., so it would be difficult to have a 10 m.p.h. speed limit. He explained that the Snowmobilers do have a dedicated fund. He also mentioned the joint effort being put out by groups that have been asked to work together to get funding for multiuse trails. He said the Luce Line allows horses, snowmobilers, and skiers. Schultz said he lives between the lake and the trail, so he gets boat noise in the summer and trail noise in the winter. He said the Luce Line has a double trail system - that snowmobiles and horses are separate from the other uses. Schultz suggested that a poll be taken among SHOREWOOD RESIDENTS to see how they use, or would use the trail for walking... skiing... biking ... snowmobiling. Keeler said dual trails would be fine, but without them the City should seriously consider banning snowmobiles. Herman said he has filed several complaints that do not show up on the police report. He said a policeman sat in his driveway last weekend and picked up a snowmobile on radar that was going 56 m.p.h. on the trail. He said the speed is too fast. It's a heavy residential area with children. He said the police told him there is no money in the budget to handle this problem. SHOREWOOD PARK COMMISSION MINUTES TUESDAY, JANUARY 22, 1991 -Page five Commissioner's Comments Commission as a whole the Commission has spend many hours on this issue. They have made a great effort to express safety. Wilson - wants to give everyone a fair chance. Personally has a problem with horses due to an experience with a horse on the trail when biking with his 6 year old. He is interested in the number of walkers vs. number of snowmobilers that use the trail. Laberee - the Commission has tried very hard to please all residents. There are definite problems - not enough control tickets and fines would help control. His office is right on the trail he said it is heavily used by both snowmobilers and walkers between 8:00am - 5:00 pm. He feels the majority are young people. He feels it is not fair to make the Council make this decision... that it should go to the voters of the City. Adams asked how many trail users are actually Shorewood residents? Vogel - If the Ordinance is not enforced—what is wrong with the Ordinance? SLMPSD has 4 officers on duty on weekends, they will let two of them work with the Snowmobile Associations. Schultz said the uses are incompatible—go out after a fresh snow. Poll the users ... where are they from? What do they use the trail for? He said it had been mentioned that snowmobilers park their trailers in Excelsior and at the Tonka Bay Inn, and then go out on the trail. Niccum mentioned that Planner Nielsen had also mentioned polling the population. Laberee asked if they could do the polling on the sewer bills, then they would be sure who the answers came from, and the answers could be tallied when the bills come in. Mrs. Vogel asked if only Shorewood residents could be licensed in Shorewood, with different colored stickers, and the money used for trail upkeep. She does not feel snowmobiles are compatible with people. Lindstrom said all recreation should be available. Lewis said enforcement should be at the forefront. Something will happen if the laws are not enforced. If they are not going to be enforced, then they should be banned. SHOREWOOD PARK COMMISSION MINUTES TUESDAY, JANUARY 22, 1991 -Page six Ellis asked the people at the meeting to form a small coalition to go along with the volunteer snow patrol, and see what they do. Kullberg said the police are willing to work with the volunteers. Christensen said it was a good idea and went along with the suggestion that all the groups get together and work together and discuss the problems and how to handle them. Belbeck said he thought several people would be willing to donate time. Wilson said he would be willing to close the trail to all but snowmobilers for 2 months. Lewis said he saw 3 problems: property damage, excessive speed, and discourteousness. Proper enforcement would solve all these problems. Keeler said this problem has existed since 1972. He said if the police would spend less time picking up people on State Highway 7 and County Road 19, which is the State patrol's job, not theirs, they would have more time for problems like this. Vogel said the City should allow more signs, and work with the snowmobile associations. Laberee said an article should be put in the paper, and a poll should be done on the next utility billing. MASTER PLANS Park Planner Koegler presented the Commission with the revised master plans. SLIDING HILL Niccum had enclosed an article on sliding hills. Wilson asked Koegler about the legal aspects. Koegler will review the information and let the Commission know. SHOREWOOD PARK COMMISSION MINUTES TUESDAY, JANUARY 22, 1991 -Page seven The Commission also discussed the possibility of a sliding hill by the S.E. Area water tower. They asked Niccum to write a letter to the Highway Department asking 1) why no parking is allowed in the lot, and 2) if sliding would be allowed into their public area. They also asked Niccum to check with Planner Nielsen to see what his opinion is. They would like to use the S.E. Area map at the next meeting. INSURANCE The Park Commission would like to know how much insurance coverage the City has to cover things like an accident on the "Hiking and Biking Trail ", or a sliding hill. MASTER PLANS.... CONTINUED Koegler said he wanted to make it clear to the Commission that these master plans are concept plans, and not to scales so they should not be used per scale. Badaer Park Trail The Commission asked if this would require bridges. Koegler said yes, two. Freeman Park - Parking Laberee asked Koegler if a review had been done on the parking yet to see if there was adequate parking if both softball and soccer were going on at the same time. Koegler said this will be done. TONKA MEN'S CLUB FIELD - FREEMAN PARK Koegler explained about the fence posts being stolen at the park. He said he had seen the contractor putting them in, so they were there. The posts are now in again, and the majority of the fencing is up - -the rest has temporary orange fencing to protect the field until the regular fencing can be finished. Koegler said their contractor has done a good job. *Contractors working in Freeman Park have had many problems with vandalism equipment damage, broken windows, theft SHOREWOOD PARK COMMISSION MINUTES TUESDAY, JANUARY 22, 1991 -Page eight PARK REFERENDUM Park Planner Koegler presented the Commission with a referendum schedule (see attached). He said Council direction had been to proceed with neighborhood meetings, see what the results are, and then a decision will be made whether or not to continue with the referendum at this time. The Commission discussed the schedule and what has to be done, The Islands, Crescent Beach, the "Hiking and Biking Trail ", Christmas Lake Access, and additional future park property were also discussed. The Council is invited to attend any... or all... meetings. MATTERS FROM THE FLOOR . Dzurak reported on snowmobile damage in the parks. He said two of the ballfield gates at Freeman Park are unlocked and open. Snowmobiles are cutting through Cathcart Park under the swing sets. This used to be a trail. Kullberg talked about posting signs around this area. Shadv Hills Park Niccum reported that she had talked to Planner Nielsen regarding the Park. The present drainage work does not affect the Park. Regarding dividing the park into two buildable lots..Nielsen said there is a lot of wetland area, the topography is bad, it would be difficult to run in sewer, and difficult to make into two lots. He was skeptical about the possibility of division. Sprinq Tour The Commission was reminded to look at soccer and football fields during the tour. AD JOURNME N T Lindstrom moved, Wilson seconded, to adjourn the meeting of Tuesday, January 22, 1991, at 11:OOpm. Motion carried - 6/0. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED Susan A. Niccum Park Administrative Assistant January 18, 1991 Information sent to Park Commission in packet to use at 1/22/81 meeting: 1. Draft of minutes 2. Snowmobile information a. Letter from Dzurak b. Newspaper editorial C. Police report 3. List and map of collector streets 4. Roster update 5. 1991 Park Commission /Council Liaison list 6. Information article on sliding hills - liabiliity 7. Update copies of master plan 8. Report from Brad Nielsen re: Shady Hills Park ( *will not be in packet) Information Horses and Snowmobiles on Railroad Corridor / "Shorewood Hiking and Biking Trail" I checked with the cities of Chanhassen and Victoria. They do not allow horses, they do allow snowmobiles. I have written the article thanking the Legion for what they have done for the City. Acting Administrator is reviewing it. Chairperson Andrus will not be present at the next meeting, Jim Wilson will be acting Chairperson. *BE SURE TO BRING YOUR REFERENDUM MATERIAL TO THIS MEETING U IF YOU PLAN TO SPEAK, PLEASE FILL IN THE INFORMATION BELOW 1f; VOIJ P S - YOU MIST' FILL. OUI _ ADDRESS AGENDA ITEM �. . q �^ ( / � SNOW 'CSX S k e a � �Za tr .3551 C �: E . uj N o v� . L U ob A�j ZrMul�SGH <r (r�S , Z- NVd R/( kill i mac. q r Q pco - - - . 5 rApZC 29' 0, IF YOU PLAN TO SPEAK, PLEASE FILL IN THE INFORMATION BELOW Amk E ADDRESS AGENDA ITEM /¢ -ALI, '00, ft � � I r • r] o� t ' o y w N J a 0 fD ` 7 � n . 0 0 0 M 0 E co 5' rn o' c a y tv 0 a. a c� 0 bd 0 A c y bd 0 0 r, February 12, 1991 - Park Commission Meeting Preparation for Neighborhood Meetings and Promotion Effort February 19, 1991 - Special Park Commission Meeting East Shorewood Neighborhood Meeting - Church Location Review Manor, Silverwood and Freeman Parks I* I February 26, 1991 - Park Commission Meeting West Shorewood Neighborhood Meeting - Minnewashta School Review Cathcart, Badger and Freeman Parks March 11, 1991 - City Council Meeting Final Decision on Referendum - Establish Date - May 7, 1991 March 12, 1991 Notify State Auditor of Special Election March 20, 1991 Special Newsletter Publication April 10, 1991 Legal Notice Sent to Newspaper April 17, 1991 Legal Notice Published and Posted May 7, 1991 - ELECTION DAY May 8, 1991 - Canvas Election Results T ' O CD O O t� b >y eD �D flr C A I..r January 18, 1991 i Information sent to Park Commission in packet to use at 1/22/81 meeting: 1. Draft of minutes 2. Snowmobile information a. Letter from Dzurak b. Newspaper editorial C. Police report 3. List and map of collector streets 4. Roster update 5. 1991 Park Commission /Council Liaison list 6. Information article on sliding hills - liabiliity 7. Update copies of master plan 8. Report from Brad Nielsen re: Shady Hills Park ( *will not be in packet) • Information Horses and Snowmobiles on Railroad Corridor / "Shorewood Hiking and Biking Trail" I checked with the cities of Chanhassen and Victoria. They do not allow horses, they do allow snowmobiles. I have written the article thanking the Legion for what they have done for the City. Acting Administrator is reviewing it. Chairperson Andrus will not be present at the next meeting, Jim Wilson will be acting Chairperson. *BE SURE TO BRING YOUR REFERENDUM MATERIAL TO THIS MEETING SNOWMOBILES 16 SUMMARY PARK MEETING TUESDAY, JANUARY 22, 1991 KEY PROBLEMS 1. Enforcement a. speed b. property damage C. attitude 2. Signage a. need more identification 3. Ordinance a. have Attorney review and simplify if possible b. add something to allow police to enter park and corridor and enforce. SUGGESTIONS 1. Have Snowmobilers work with police a. ask cooperation from SLMPSD b. see if DNR will help 2. Have Snowmobilers see where signage is needed, map it, and install it 3. Have snowmobilers and other residents, complainants, etc. meet and work out enforcement plan 4. Poll residents (sewer bills ?) .J