020999 PK MIN
CITY OF SHOREWOOD COUNCIL CHAMBERS
PARK COMMISSION MEETING 5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 9, 1999 7:30 P.M.
MINUTES
1. CONVENE PARK COMMISSION MEETING
Co-chair Pat Arnst called the meeting to order at 7:34 p.m.
A. Roll Call
Present: Co-chairs, Dallman and Arnst; Commissioners Colopoulos, Puzak, Themig, and
Cochran; City Administrator Jim Hurm; Council Liaison Scott Zerby; Park Planner,
Mark Koegler
Absent: Commissioner Bensman
Also Present: Gordy Lindstrom, Baseball Representative; Public Works Director, Larry Brown (later
arrival)
B. Review Agenda
Item #5 is moved to the March meeting agenda.
Themig moved, Puzak seconded to approve the Agenda as amended. Motion passed
unanimously (6/0).
2. APPROVAL OF JANUARY 13, 1999 PARK COMMISSION MINUTES
Puzak moved , Colopoulos seconded, to accept the minutes as presented. The motion
passed unanimously.
3. MATTERS FROM THE FLOOR
Mr. Gordy Lindstrom, Shorewood resident and Little League Baseball representative, addressed the
Commission to: (1) review improvements and changes that have been made to the ball field areas; and
(2) give an update on changes in the baseball program for 1999. He displayed a map of the ball fields
at Freeman Park and explained the changes to field #3 over the past year. Those included: adjustment
of the parking lot to the north, addition of bullpen areas, electronic scoreboard and a flagpole. He
stated that these adjustments perhaps eliminate the need to install additional fencing for safety reasons.
Mr. Lindstrom added that the League has also installed electrical service to the pitchers’ mounds on
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February 9, 1999
Page 2
field #1 and at Cathcart Park for the operation of pitching machines. All of these changes are to allow
for a more efficient program, which has served children of ages 6 to 15. This year, the South Tonka
Little League has merged with East Tonka Babe Ruth (housed at Bennett Park in Minnetonka).
Therefore, the League would like permission to eventually make changes to field #2 at Freeman to
accommodate older players. This would require the use of some additional land to the east of the ball
field (the Wagner property) for reconfiguration of the ball field and traffic areas. The League has been
given some estimates of the cost of such improvements, which they will cover if the City is able to
acquire the additional property. In the meantime, the League would like permission to sod the infield
of the Babe Ruth diamond this spring.
Chair Arnst asked how much additional land would be needed. Lindstrom said a minimum of 20 to 30
feet. Colopoulos asked if the boards of the two associations have also merged and if the new board is
in favor of the reconfiguration. Lindstrom said they have merged and that the reconfiguration should
not be a problem. The other advantage in rearranging the ball field is that the noise would project away
from the Shorewood Oaks neighborhood which is to the west of the park. Dallman asked if the poles
and nets will still need to be installed as was planned for a protection from foulballs going into private
property. Puzak recommended that this be addressed soon for the sake of neighbors, regardless of
plans for future changes which could be slow in coming.
Colopoulos pointed out that there will likely be more practices and games than in the past. He would
personally approve the use of the current field configuration for only the prep league (13 year olds)
because of the current space situation. Council Liaison Scott Zerby interjected that the City Council
voted the night before to settle the lawsuit with the prospective developer of the Wagner property and
approved the initial application of the PUD for 60 to 62 units. The proposed plan was shown on the
overhead projector for the Park Commission. There was discussion about how this proposal would
affect the options for reconfiguration of the ball fields and the affects on traffic flow and safety.
Administrator Hurm pointed out that the plan is only a concept. Colopoulos said that the reduction in
the number of units from the last proposal was not in the area of the concern, but to the north, which is
a wetland area, adding that the needs of the park are ignored in this plan. Puzak reiterated the concern
for safety, especially to and from the concession stand near that area, and stated that the additional 30
to 50 feet would definitely be needed. Lindstrom indicated that this is all the more reason to
reconfigure the field. Colopoulos said that the problem would still exist without the acquisition of
additional space for traffic. Arnst suggested waiting until the Council further discusses the proposal
from the developer and then provide an updated report for Mr. Lindstrom at the March meeting.
Lindstrom asked if the League could sod the infield this spring. Themig asked if it would require
irrigation. Lindstrom said no, that it would just need to be heavily watered at the beginning. Hurm
said that the question of a backstop and poles and netting still remains. Arnst said that those issues can
also be discussed at the March meeting and still allow time for installation. It was agreed that in any
case, additional land would be a positive point for safety, room to play the game and a wider road to
handle increased traffic. Themig suggested that the reality might be that we have a park which may not
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February 9, 1999
Page 3
be able to support this program. Puzak said that in light of the long term relationship with the Little
League and all they have done to enhance the park, he would hate to not come through with 30 feet to
allow them to continue safe play. Lindstrom briefly explained some of the history of the park
development and concluded that it is reasonable for the City to request additional land in order to be a
good neighbor to residents all around.
4. TRAIL REVIEW - MARK KOEGLER
A. Review Format for February 23 Meeting
The meeting will be an open house format with displays and exhibits. Commissioners, staff, Council
members and Park Planner Koegler will be on hand to visit with residents and answer questions.
B. Review Handouts/Exhibits for February 23 Meeting
Park Planner Koegler described the planned set-up for the Open House including a series of stations
with maps, a timeline from 1991 and into the future, a larger text display of goals, policies and
objectives, and an exhibit of trail types. There will also be an area for comment sheets with a goal that
people will hopefully be comfortable with expressing their thoughts. Arnst asked about information
regarding funding sources. Koegler explained that they do not plan to go into great detail until more is
known about the process. He added that cost estimates would also be difficult to project at this point
because of all the variables such as right of way issues, obstacles, etc.
Themig asked how to address questions that may come up regarding interest in some bridging over
Highway 7. Puzak suggested the possibility of requesting State funds along with that idea, which is
still very much in the future. Colopoulos added that priority will be assigned in all options, depending
on public interest. Cochran brought up the idea of having a suggestion board at the open house for
getting that kind of input from residents.
C. Review Roll of Park Commission
Koegler reviewed the plan that Commissioners will take a front and center role and had taken assigned
times during the evening so that at least one Park Commissioner would be present at all times. Staff
and consulting staff will be there as a support to the Commissioners. Colopoulos recommended that
everyone keep notes of verbal conversations and comments. Hurm said that he will be at the sign-in
area to encourage people to register their presence and to introduce them to the format. Colopoulos
suggested a goal of communication with soft input collection, with Koegler adding that the atmosphere
is to be friendly and casual. Cochran asked if survey results will be posted. Koegler said that copies
will be available.
D. Consider Targeted Mailings
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Arnst stated that the City Council has urged the Park Commission to consider mailings to encourage
attendance at the open house meeting. Hurm said that a mailing is planned for those properties along
the priority trail sites and asked if the Commission would like to expand the mailing list. The
Commission approved the draft mailer for the immediate property owners and discussed whether to go
beyond that list.
Puzak said that the trail process (and trails) are for the entire community and all should be personally
invited. This will result in getting a more balanced response, and not just hearing from
those more directly impacted. Cochran commented that it will be good to have responses of
impassioned people, even if it is a more negative tone. Themig asked about mailing a postcard to all
residents in addition to the “targeted” mailer. Colopoulos said that the February newsletter insert
which was sent to all residents will trigger attendance, and yet a postcard reminder would be good for
those who may have forgotten or didn’t read the newsletter.
Administrator Hurm said that most comments have so far been positive. There was one Edgewood
Road resident in the office today who was strongly opposed to a trail along her street. Cochran noted
that people may trust the process more and go away with a positive attitude if all are included via
invitation. Puzak added that if attendance is lower with primarily negative responses, it could unfairly
drive the decision. Dallman said he liked the idea of staying with the list of most affected residents
rather than the whole community. Zerby also agreed with the targeted mailer, pointing out that some
of those residents may be supporters of the trail. Those residents should be specifically invited as they
may become “partners/caretakers” of the trail. Their feed back may also help in prioritizing in order to
establish some success stories for trails in Shorewood.
Hurm noted that there will be a public announcement published in the local papers as well. Puzak said
that he is still uncomfortable with just the targeted mailer. All will benefit by trails and all should be
invited. He is concerned about repeating history where a strong minority derailed the interests of the
community.
Puzak moved to send a letter to each household in Shorewood that would announce the trails
open house. Wording for those on the trail would say “your street” (as written on the draft
invitation) and all others would say “your neighborhood.”
The motion was amended to say that all residents will be sent a postcard and the 210 “targeted”
mailers will be letters. Cochran seconded the motion as amended and it passed 6/0.
Koegler noted that, in error, the map which was part of the newsletter insert was missing a segment of
indicated trail along Smithtown Road, east of Minnewashta School. His concern is that it may give the
perception of inconsistency. He asked if it should now be included on the new map for the open house
display. All agreed that it should be added because it was approved in earlier discussions as a priority
trail segment.
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February 9, 1999
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E. Consider a Time Line for 1999 Trail Planning Process
Administrator Hurm reviewed the timeline draft including sunset times for March, April and May.
Arnst added that the mission is to keep this schedule until prospective trails are identified. There was
discussion about scheduling trail walks for Saturday mornings in addition to or instead of the proposed
Tuesday evening schedule. That question will be added to the open house feedback form to get citizen
input.
F. Update on Funds Allocated for Park Planner
Arnst asked if there were any questions or problems with the information provided in the January 19
memo from Administrator Hurm regarding trail planning costs. There were none. Hurm added that
the cost of the additional mailer will be also drawn from the trail fund. All agreed.
G. Other Issues
Commissioner Themig mentioned a mailer he received about trail development in Chanhassen, which
supports possible trail links with Shorewood segments. He also shared information about the trail
grant programs, which he said favor state and regional connections. There are lots of dollars available
from other programs which would be appropriate for application next year.
Arnst stated that Mayor Love has asked that the open house be posted as a public notice in case a
majority of City Council members attend. This will be taken care of by staff.
5. DISCUSS DESIGN CONCEPT OF FREEMAN PARK MULTI-PURPOSE
BUILDING
This item is tabled until the March 9 meeting.
6. REVIEW ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION POLICIES (DRAFT) AND FEE
FORMULAS
A. Finalize Policies
Commissioner Themig gave an update on the work that has been done to date. Public Works Director,
Larry Brown has provided a detailed analysis of costs to operate the parks on a yearly basis. Brown
explained that “Base Costs” would cover basic maintenance of the park land owned by the City. These
are defined as the cost of having green space for people to enjoy which includes mowing, weed
control, trash pickup, aeration, park equipment and general turf care. The “Above Base Costs” include
dragging/grooming ball fields, equipment specific to ball fields, materials, fencing and fence repairs.
Brown noted that some could be argued as “gray areas.” Puzak said that it should be footnoted that
park development is not factored into these figures.
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B. Decide on Funding Formula
Themig said that the Committee then looked at costs for space provided to each sports association.
The purpose is to come up with a concept on how to determine a fee to propose to the associations as
a formula for their user fees. Brown went on to explain Table 3, a summary of hockey costs. Biff
rental is included, but could also be considered a base cost. Hurm pointed out that much of the figures
reflect “ice costs”, since the hockey association may have it only reserved for a small amount of
available ice time. Mr. Lindstrom added his observation that the average amount of actual use is only
about half of the scheduled time due to weather, ice conditions, etc.
Brown commented that it would be interesting to survey surrounding communities on how they
address reserved park space. Arnst noted that the Shorewood tax base does not have commercial
resources. Plus funds for parks are limited and decreasing so we look at Shorewood differently. Hurm
added that the Minnetonka Community and Education Services which does scheduling for park facility
use have not been able to come up with a formula. Themig said that one idea they have discussed is an
hourly fee for exclusive-use ice time that would involve a formula which prorates ice costs.
Hurm noted that in looking at the three associations that are the greater users of park space, the costs
are very different from one to the next. Yet the yearly “fee” has been the same for all. The estimated
above base costs are:
Softball $12,648
Baseball (Little League) $8,217
Soccer $4,775
Football $1,555
Themig asked Mr. Lindstrom if he was surprised at the figure of $8,217 for Little League costs.
Lindstrom said that it is understandable, but will take some time to digest. Colopoulos stated that the
process of studying this information is a healthy exercise which now requires a look at the fiscal policy
before establishing formulas and user fees. Themig replied that this has been the process.
Puzak said that there is also a need to incorporate into this information, contributions in “cost and
kind,” citing the example of Little League which has done and given so much. Themig said that this
data is strictly looking at maintenance, not improvements. What Little League has done was done to
benefit Little League. Lindstrom said that the Little League does not have a problem with paying for
exclusive use.
Themig explained that determining the hours available in a season vs. hours of actual use could give a
formula for a percentage of the cost. Hurm said that perhaps an hourly formula should include base
costs. Brown commented that he stayed away from including base costs because that is just for
providing basic green space. Themig added that the City would cover some percentage of these costs
as part of their fiscal policy.
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February 9, 1999
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Colopoulos brought up the question of real estate values and how other communities compare in
amenities they provide to residents. He asked how Shorewood’s fiscal policy would fit into the wider
picture. Arnst noted that the fiscal policy should be included in the discussion of park user fees and
costs. Colopoulos added that a partnership attitude is needed between the sports associations and the
City and if special adjustments in fees are needed, it should be shown.
Puzak complimented Mr. Brown on a good job of collecting and preparing the data on park costs.
He agreed that a fiscal policy of some kind needs to be developed. He reminded everyone that the
sports organizations are our partners, working with our community’s children and therefore providing
benefit to the greater community. He urged that we work together to solve the problem.
Themig asked if Community Education and Services can provide information on the number of hours
of field time requested by the various groups. Hurm said that they can, with some time to gather that
information. Arnst recommended that the committee take the next step to develop a fiscal policy, get
information on hours of use and then put together a formula of ideas to look at in the next meeting.
This was agreed upon.
C. Set Date / Format for Session with Sports Organizations
Themig asked if sports association representatives should be invited for the next meeting’s discussion.
It was agreed that ideas need more work and solidifying before they are presented. Themig asked if
the City Council should be more involved with this part of the process. Puzak responded that the Park
Commission needs to develop a concept before presenting a plan to the Council because that is the
responsibility assigned to the Commission.
Mr. Lindstrom interjected a comment about the softball association and some of its changes in order to
explain why they may have declined to contribute to the park fund for this past year. He added that
Todd Strott, past President of the softball association had donated many hours to operate the
concession stand at Freeman Park. Colopoulos suggested that the softball area could possibly be
shared with women’s softball or other groups if the men’s softball is lower in numbers this year. It was
mentioned, that because of the timing of a policy decision, any changes made to the policy will not be
effective for this year.
7. REVIEW 1999 “TO DO” LIST
This item is tabled until the March meeting agenda.
8. REVIEW PARK DEDICATION FEE
Hurm explained that the Park Dedication Fee is the major resource for Capital Improvements.
The current fee is set at $1,000 per buildable lot. Puzak recommended a fee schedule based on
linear or square footage. Colopoulos asked how the fee would apply in the case of a multiple
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February 9, 1999
Page 8
unit development (such as Eagle Crest). Hurm said that the situation of senior housing and
donated land create a different scenario. Themig asked for the reason that an increase is being
considered. Hurm explained that Shorewood has a significantly lower fee than most of its
neighbors and Arnst added that park funds (and buildable lots) are on the decline. Hurm said that
there are about 300 buildable lots remaining in Shorewood averaging about 10 home
constructions per year. He added that the revenue dollars from park dedication fees are
earmarked for improvements of parks (not maintenance or trail development).
Colopoulos commented that the cost is ultimately passed on to the homeowner, not the developer
or builder. Yet, over the life of a mortgage, it does not increase payments significantly. Hurm
suggested that there be a flat fee rather than a formula to determine the amount. Colopoulos said
that P.U.D. (Planned Unit Development) decisions should be brought to the Park Commission
because it impacts park planning and decisions. Hurm replied that it has been the practice in the
past to involve the Park Commission.
Themig moved to recommend to City Council that the Park Commission amend the Park
Dedication Fee to remain at $1,000 per unit and add $500 per unit for trails. There was no
second and the motion died.
Puzak said that he is not ready for the idea of including trails in that policy. Themig explained
that the parks are primarily developed and this idea would focus additional resources on our
current development (trails). Puzak replied that there are still a lot of development and
improvement expenses ahead for parks and he is not willing to say that we don’t need the money
for park development. Colopoulos said that he is not yet ready to specify funds to trails. Themig
pointed out that the recent community survey says that (1) parks meet the needs of most peoples
and (2) that there is a desire for trails.
Dallman moved to recommend to the city Council that the Park Commission raise the Park
Dedication Fee to $1,500. Colopoulos seconded.
Cochran questioned if $1,500 is enough of an increase. Dallman said that it is increased on a
yearly basis. Colopoulos suggested considering a friendly amendment that the Park Commission
make this part of their fiscal policy. Puzak said that this may be a missed opportunity. In looking
at other cities, some use a percentage of the market value to set a fee which results in a
significantly higher amount. By comparison, Shorewood is on the low end of the scale. He
recommended going with 7% of the market value with a minimum of $1,000 and maximum of
$3,000. Arnst pointed out that with an average lot price of $100,000, the fee will almost always
max out at the $3,000 limit.
Themig asked why “penalize” those who build houses this year and still why not include trails?
Puzak said trails could be included and Colopoulos said that there is not a limit to where it is
spent in the current plan. Arnst asked where does the money get spent if the fee is raised to
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February 9, 1999
Page 9
$1,500? Hurm said that is up to the Park Commission to decide.
A vote was taken on the motion currently on the floor. The motion failed 3/3.
Puzak asked if there was a time limit on when this decision is made. Hurm replied that the earlier
in the calendar year, the better. Arnst said that with the added element of trails, the Commission
will want to recognize that option. Themig added that it would be good to consider this in the
fiscal policy discussion. Puzak said that including trails is a huge change and it needs more
thought than there is time at this meeting. Themig asked if Excelsior has a Park Dedication Fee
and Hurm said that there are no undeveloped lots to speak of in Excelsior. Themig asked when
Shorewood last changed the fee amount. It was changed from $750 to $1,000 two years ago.
9. REPORT ON LETTER TO COUNCIL REGARDING WAGNER PROPERTY
Council Liaison Zerby reported that the City Council approved a motion to settle the lawsuit with
Eagle Crest Inc. because the Council felt that the judges settlement would likely be less favorable than
coming to terms between themselves. They also approved a Resolution to accept the PUD at a lower
density and continue the process. There are still a lot of details to work out. One issue is traffic, which
is a concern, especially of residents along Seamans Drive. The City cannot deny the project for traffic
reasons, but can work with the developer to resolve traffic issues.
Arnst pointed out that the Park Commission had already expressed to the Planning Commission and
City Council that they were in consensus about the need to acquire a portion of Wagner property to
resolve safety and traffic issues within Freeman Park. Zerby replied that the City Council had
considered the request and decided that it was not appropriate to discuss that matter with the developer
at this time. Colopoulos added that the Park Commission does have a legitimate concern to maintain
the integrity of the park boundary and hopes that the Council recognizes that. Themig asked if the
development involves other properties. Zerby said that Eagle Crest has purchase agreements with
three landowners.
10. OTHER BUSINESS
Public Works Director Brown reported that some windows have again been knocked out at the
Badger warming house. This year has seen an inordinate amount of damage to the park
shelters.Because we are nearing the end of the ice season, the Badger and Cathcart rinks will likely be
closed before the pond skating areas, partially due to the vandalism problem. Brown said he hopes that
this decision is not against the desire of the Park Commission and that the action will make a statement
to the community. The City is taking steps internally in regard to security. One is to increase patrol
time of the rink supervisor next season. Another may be to install a smaller window at Badger, which
unfortunately reduces natural lighting and the visibility for rink attendants to keep an eye on the rink.
Themig suggested steel shutters on the exteriors of the buildings. Arnst suggested an article in the City
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February 9, 1999
Page 10
newsletter about the problem. Colopoulos said that he is opposed to giving the impression that we are
letting vandals “win” by reducing access to parks for all other park users. Themig suggested offering a
$100 reward for information leading to the conviction of a vandal. Puzak said that if it is too late for
this season, perhaps there should be a policy established for next season. Zerby asked if there is
signage which states penalties for vandalism. Brown said not yet.
Arnst also noted that there is still a significant problem with pet owners not cleaning up after their pets
and asked if the next newsletter could include a reminder about mutt mitts.
11. NEW BUSINESS
There was no new business. The March agenda will include discussion on the trail open house, and the
athletic association policy along with more information from Community Services about the amount of
hours reserved for park facilities. Brown will also report on the status of the multi-use building plan.
12. ADJOURNMENT
Cochran moved, Colopoulos seconded to adjourn the meeting. Motion passed 6/0. The meeting
adjourned at 10:27 p.m.
RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED
Connie Bastyr
Recording Secretary