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030999 PK MIN CITY OF SHOREWOOD COUNCIL CHAMBERS PARK COMMISSION MEETING 5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD TUESDAY, MARCH 9, 1999 7:30 P.M. MINUTES CONVENE PARK COMMISSION MEETING 1. Co-chair Dallman called the meeting to order at 7:34 p.m. A. Roll Call Present: Co-chairs Dallman and Arnst; Commissioners Colopoulos, Puzak, Themig, and Cochran; Administrator Jim Hurm; Park Planner, Mark Koegler Absent: Commissioner Bensman; Council Liaison Scott Zerby B. Review Agenda Commissioner Colopoulos asked to table item #8. He would like to seek input from the City Council before going further with the subject. Themig asked if the topic of fiscal policy relates more to athletic association use fees versus the park dedication fees. Colopolous said they can be tied together and it is something to explore. He would like to author a list of questions, submit it to the Council and then bring it back to the Park Commission to go forward. The item was tabled until the April 13, 1999 Park Commission meeting. APPROVAL OF MINUTES 2. A. Park Commission Minutes of February 9, 1999 Commissioner Arnst noted two typos: Page 5, paragraph 3, the word “trial” should be “trail.” Page 7, paragraph 1, last full line, change “proratesice” to “prorates ice.” Arnst moved, Themig seconded, to accept the minutes as amended. The motion passed unanimously. MATTERS FROM THE FLOOR 3. Co-chair Dallman explained to the people present that if their comments and questions pertain to trails, there will be opportunity for discussion during agenda item #4. Steve Johnson, Howards Point Road resident, stated that he and the 11 other neighbors present are representing the large majority of Howards Point Road residents opposing a trail segment on their street. This was Park Commission Meeting Tuesday, March 9, 1999 Page 2 deferred to item #4. Another resident asked if it is true that NSP corridors theoretically could be used as trail easements. Commissioner Themig said that it depends on what type of trail, easement or line it is. This will also be discussed in item #4. TRAIL PLANNING PROCESS 4. It was agreed to discuss this topic by the individual proposed trail segments, starting with Howards Point Road . Resident Steve Johnson, 5845 Howards Point Road, spoke for the group of 12 who were present, saying that the vast majority of residents on Howards Point Road are opposed to a trail segment on their street. He presented a petition, signed by 85-90% of residents who border Howards Point Road and said they are very much against a trail of any kind, including a sidewalk. They feel it is inappropriate for the area and are not in favor of any type of urbanization. The long-term residents of the neighborhood knew of no pedestrian/car accidents there, so safety is not an issue. Commissioner Themig had visited the neighborhood on the previous Saturday and asked if weekday traffic is typically more or less than what he observed. Mr. Johnson said that traffic can be greater during peak hours, but he views this as a law enforcement issue. He feels a trail will increase the speed of vehicles out of a false sense of safety, since drivers may not expect the possibility of pedestrians on the roadway. Another resident asked if there were reasons for suggesting a trail segment for their street, since none or very few people (less than 10%) in their area would want it. Commissioner Themig responded that the suggested trails came from a variety of sources. One was a comment from a resident who suggested it because of access to Minnewashta School. Besides public comment, the school district put together a list of “issue roads” where kids may be walking if they ever decreased bus service. And third, a trail plan from 1991 had some places identified. He added that the wording, “Potential” and “Proposed” may have been misleading. He stressed that they are only concepts and the Commission is seeking resident input. Steve Johnson, speaking for a majority of residents, asked that Howards Point Road be permanently removed from the map. Chuck Christian, 5905 Howards Point Road asked who is saying that bussing to school will be stopped. He said that parents will not want their kids to walk to school in the dark and in winter even if there is a trail for them to walk on. Commissioner Themig said it was just one piece of information the Park Commission used in their process; the bussing decision is not the real issue. Mr. Christian also asked about space for a trail, especially where the road narrows and about cutting into people’s privacy. Mr. Johnson observed that the trail along the Boulder Bridge area is being littered by trail users. Mr. Christian added that they live in this rural setting because they like the privacy it affords. Kathy Anderson, 5785 Howards Point Road said that she also canvassed residents on Island View Road and the Brentridge area. All of those people said trails would be lovely, but they should Park Commission Meeting Tuesday, March 9, 1999 Page 3 have been put in before the developments. They do not want to go on trails that cut through peoples’ back yards or to see trees or shrubbery cut down. Susan Brecke, Pine Bend Road is also against trails. She asked why it is even being considered, adding that she has lived there for 30 years and has not observed a traffic problem while walking in her neighborhood and does not see any need for trails there. Co-chair Dallman reiterated Commissioner Themig’s point that the Howards Point segment was considered as a result of a past resident comment. Julie Scheurer, 26930 Edgewood Road, said she has yet to receive an answer as to why a trail would be designated if it will not likely be built there. She is suspicious that the street could then be subject to future widening because of the trail designation. She also asked what would be the change in usage. Commissioner Themig explained that it is up to the neighborhood, if it wants a trail, to determine what type of trail it would be. A designated trail means that a white stripe is painted on the roadway and a sign is posted to indicate that it is for biking or pedestrians only. The placement of the trail would also be up to the neighborhood. The question was asked if “neighborhood” is defined as a general area or as the properties directly adjacent to a trail. Co- chair Dallman said it is a general area. Resident, Val Gregerson, 5735 Howards Point Road said she walks a lot in the neighborhood and does not see a problem. Her concern is where a trail would fit, even if there was a need for one. She asked if specific barriers have been considered and how much research has been done. Commissioner Themig explained that this is the first step of a many-step process. This is where we start (getting input) and research will not be done if there is not neighborhood interest in a trail. Don Kline, Edgewood Road, asked how the survey was scientifically conducted since only those who are pro-trail would likely take the time to answer questions. He also asked if thought has been given to the matter of maintenance of trails. Commissioner Puzak explained that the survey was done via telephone and it was city-wide. The survey included questions about parks, facilities, green space and other issues besides trails. Administrator Hurm added that the City hired a professional service, Decision Resources to conduct the survey. Decision Resources randomly selected 300 Shorewood residents to call and very few declined participation so there was a good cross section of the population. Mr. Kline asked if the cross section showed a need for a trail down Howards Point Road. Commissioner Puzak explained that no where in that survey were individual trail segments identified. They have come about since the survey process in a brainstorming session. Commissioner Puzak explained the steps over the past year in the trail process and sources of input that led to a selection of ideas for possible trail segments. Administrator Hurm clarified that the school district’s communication was not about a change in bus service, but to identify roadway hazards for children. Commissioner Puzak said that the map was made as a talking point—a place to start. Based on input to that point, this includes trails that: go to and from someplace, such as parks; connect with other trails; and create some loops. The map’s single purpose is to be a starting point for Park Commission Meeting Tuesday, March 9, 1999 Page 4 discussion. Steve Johnson asked if this means that people from other cities could use the trail. Commissioner Puzak said that as Shorewood residents have access to other cities’ trails, one would assume reciprocity. Mr. Kline asked again about maintenance and also about the issue of snowmobile usage on trails. Administrator Hurm said that City code requires snowmobiles to travel only on the plow ridge side, which would disqualify trails for such use (except for the Regional Trail). There was also question about fire lanes as trails. Administrator Hurm said that fire lanes are not public access and are not to be used by snowmobiles. Commissioner Dallman responded to the question of maintenance saying that the trail process is still in the early stages. Not a single square foot of trail is planned at this very preliminary phase. Julie Scheurer brought up the issue of funding resources and restrictions that may be tied to funds for trails. She has looked at DNR grant applications which seem to require restrictions to be specified in the proposal. The concern is that there would be “surprises” after the fact which would obligate the City to allow trail use by snowmobiles, for example. Administrator Hurm said that the City Council would first need to approve grant applications. Commissioner Puzak said that none of these trails, if they were off-street, would be used by snowmobiles. If a segment is defined as off-road, it is not the intention of the Park Commission to say snowmobiles could travel there. Ms. Scheurer said that if a trail is on a loop on a DNR designated trail, the City could lose the control to say whether snowmobile traffic is allowed. Park Planner Mark Koegler explained that the Commission is a long way from investigating funding because it is tied into the purpose of the trail. Also the Citizen Review Group formulated recommendations to the Park Commission and City Council, one of which is that the funding sources must match the City’s interest. The City will not apply for funding that does not meet what the City wants for trail use. There were additional comments from the floor, repeating the concern about increased snowmobile traffic and the lack of neighborhood interest in a trail segment as a loop off of Smithtown Road. John Mugford, 5755 Howards Point Road, asked about the effect trails would have on property setbacks. Co-chair Dallman described the three examples of trail types that were shown at the February open house and said that the trail design for a particular segment will be up to the neighborhoods. The Park Commission’s intent is to construct trails in neighborhood areas which desire a trail segment. Commissioner Themig said that and off-road trail would likely use City easement if it exists—and the width of that will vary. It is too early to answer the question of setbacks because it will depend on the situation. Mr. Mugford asked how trails would affect parking along streets. Co-chair Dallman said that the Park Commission and residents will walk potential trail sites and look at space restrictions and obstacles and then decide together what works best. Ms. Scheurer asked if streets with a designated trail would need to be widened. Mr. Hurm said Park Commission Meeting Tuesday, March 9, 1999 Page 5 that the Comprehensive Plan document does include recommended widths for streets. Commissioner Themig pointed out that if the easement is currently being used for personal use, there is another issue to address on the trail walk. That problem would be approached in the future when there would be an approved trail segment and the various details are being worked out. Mr. Johnson asked what is required to have the Howards Point Road segment removed from the map. Commissioner Themig said that we want to listen to any further comments and reiterated that it is only a concept map. It is too early to make that decision. There was discussion about the definition of “neighborhood” and how large of an area will be polled before making such a decision. Co-chair Dallman said that the resident comments are noted, but further input is desired. Commissioner Puzak said that it is a part of the process. The Commission has heard well what these residents have said and he thanked them for their input. He said that the City does not want to build trails where they will not be enjoyed or welcomed. The Commission will proceed with the process as they have committed to do, which is to walk the area and listen to any additional comments. Mr. Kline asked what residents must do to tell the Commission “No” to the potential trail. Commissioner Themig said that they have, or at least, he has heard that. He sees no need to even walk the area, yet that does not mean that a trail idea for Howards Point Road is eliminated for eternity. Commissioner Colopoulos said it is important for people to know how the Commission regards their input. Comments both written and verbal have been received and will be taken into consideration. There is a larger issue: Will an unaffected majority of people supporting trails be allowed to mandate trail construction against the will of an affected minority? He said that it is therefore important to attend these kinds of meetings and assured that though the process is imperfect, we are doing the best we can. Commissioner Cochran added that the approach being taken by the City is different and more open than was used in the past. They are listening. Mr. Christian asked if there is a time frame. Co-chair Dallman said we would like to start this spring with a walk in the area. Commissioner Colopoulos suggested that a walk along Howards Point Road may answer many of the questions brought up at this meeting. Co-chair Dallman suggested moving on to discussion of other sections. Mayor Love asked to speak from the floor. He suggested that it might be a good thing to walk the segment together and have dialogue on site in order to look at various points. The intention is not to force a trail on any neighborhood, but to get community input. Galpin Lake Road - There was one favorable comment from the open house. Commissioner Themig said this will take more research because of the possible crossing for Highway #7 being discussed by the City of Excelsior. This may be considered for a walk in the fall. There were no residents present at this meeting with comments about the Galpin Lake Road segment. Enchanted Island - Co-chair Arnst said this area is being considered for trails because of resident interest. It was agreed that this area should be looked at soon since most Commissioners are unfamiliar with the islands and to solicit more resident input. This will be a spring walk. Park Commission Meeting Tuesday, March 9, 1999 Page 6 St. Albans Bay Road - There were two comments in opposition, both from people from the Amesbury neighborhood. Administrator Hurm noted that Julie Ekelund, a Greenwood Council Member is excited about the possibility and the two cities could perhaps work together since it is on the boundary. He will talk with her again. A walk of this area will take place in the summer. Edgewood / Noble - There were three negatives. This falls in with Howard’s Point and Grant Lorenz. Commissioner Themig offered to those residents present a neighborhood walk, to look at fire lanes and other issues brought to this meeting. It was agreed to do that during the summer when there is marina activity, etc. Yellowstone - There was one positive, one conditionally in favor and 4 negatives. This segment would be a connector from a Chanhassen segment, to the Shorewood shopping center and to City Hall. This will be visited in the fall or late summer. Mill Street - There were 4 yes and 3 conditionally in favor. Co-chair Arnst reported that she spoke with City Engineer Larry Brown about this segment. Because this is a county road, there are additional issues with easements, etc. Mr. Brown is looking into this, and into Galpin Lake Road as well. Covington / Vine Hill - This is a segment with very positive support. There is a segment of trail on the west side of Vine Hill, north of Covington and south of Near Mountain. Commissioner Colopoulos noticed that there appears to be a raised shoulder for some kind of trail. One resident asked about continuing that segment to Covington Road about one year ago. There were several people at the open house speaking in favor of a trail there, plus e-mail and letters highly supporting this segment. Co-chair Arnst has asked Engineer Brown to check with the City of Minnetonka about their trail plans for the east side of Vine Hill Road. There is definite interest in a trail from Silverwood Park to Vine Hill Road and north along Vine Hill. This will be one of the first two trail walks because of the high resident interest. Smithtown Road, east of the LRT - Commissioner Colopoulos said that both segments of Smithtown should be walked. Co-chair Arnst asked if there was someone who would like to speak from the floor about this segment. Christine Lizee, 27055 Smithtown Road read a letter (which is attached to, and part of these minutes) asking the Commission to consider the portion of Smithtown Road from Strawberry Lane to Lake Virginia Drive for a trail segment. The letter was signed by 8 residents. They also stated support of the inclusive process being used by the Park Commission. Commissioner Themig asked if there is any thought about continuing westward to the Victoria border. Lizee said yes, many people walk along that route. It needs to be an inclusive process and she recommended checking with the City of Victoria to see if they plan to do something there. Commissioner Themig said that could happen in the future, but for now a trial walk should be done along Smithtown from Boulder Bridge to Strawberry Lane. Commissioner Colopoulos added that this should be high priority because of the invitation to consider that area. It was proposed that a walk take place on a Saturday morning, concluding with a gathering at Park Commission Meeting Tuesday, March 9, 1999 Page 7 City Hall. Co-chair Arnst suggested that the walk be video taped. Lizee noted that there are residents who are concerned about safety in the area at Minnewashta School and crosswalk access, making it a priority. It was agreed to address this segment soon. Commissioner Puzak asked if there could be three Smithtown Road segments, with a third being east of Country Club Road / County Road 19 to the Excelsior border. Commissioner Cochran said that the proposed changes at that intersection may affect a trail design and decision there. A beginning trail walk schedule was determined as follows: Smithtown Road west of the LRT will be on Saturday, April 10, 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. with a “coffee time” at City Hall from 11:00 to noon. Covington/Vine Hill will be on Tuesday, April 20, 6:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. with a “coffee time” from 9:00 to 10:00 p.m. if a neighbor’s garage or other site is made available. Commissioner Themig asked if the South Lake Minnetonka Public Safety Department can be notified for safety reasons and possibly be on hand since a potentially large number of pedestrians will be along the roadway. Co-chair Arnst asked that the events both be video taped. The public will be notified in advance about these walks through the city newsletter and adjoining neighbors of the trail areas will also be notified by a letter. Commissioner Puzak recommended that the coffee time afterwards would not be the emphasis, since most comments will be made along the walk. Rain dates, in case of inclement weather will be: April 10 changes to April 24 and April 20 changes to April 27. People will be able to check the cities voicemail system to confirm. THERE WAS A THREE MINUTE BREAK 5. REPORT FROM CITY PLANNER CONCERNING THE STATUS OF AND OPTIONS FOR THE EAGLECREST / WAGNER PROPERTY Planning Director, Brad Nielsen explained that the City is trying to address the Park Commission’s interest in land adjacent to Freeman Park. With a map, Mr. Nielsen showed how tight space already is between the existing parking and driving areas and the Wagner property and between the ball fields and the Shorewood Oaks property to the west. Nielsen reviewed how the Eagle Crest proposal was brought to the Park Commission two years ago, asking to address a couple of issues: (1) Closing off the southerly access, exchanging it with an access coming in from the east (which is consistent with the City’s position on the Highway 7 corridor study) and; (2) A possible swap of land with the developer in order to reshape the park. This is gone by the wayside because of deed restrictions on the park property. The proposal for the development is now reduced from 80 to 60 or 62 units, dropping the density by 25%. They have tried to look at ways to squeeze the layout in order to acquire additional space for Freeman Park, while maintaining the required 40 foot setback. The developer was asked to move the units along the westerly lot line to the south and enlarge the pond so units would be further from the active area of possible foul balls from field #2. Nielsen showed the Park Commission Meeting Tuesday, March 9, 1999 Page 8 latest plan which reflects those changes. There is still no room gained in the east to west space of the park. This situation has been discussed with the Little League association. Staff is suggesting that the Park Commission consider blocking off the north/south roadway along the ball fields on a day-to- day basis, leaving it accessible to pedestrians and emergency vehicles and then upgrading the parking area on the south end to 97 stalls. The access to that parking area would be through the development off of Eureka Road. There was discussion about the effects the entrance changes would effect residents on either side and on users of the park. The concern is that we do not want to trade a problem of foul balls going to the west for foul balls encroaching on the property to the east. There will be some landscaping along the west edge of the new development to provide some protection and sound barrier. Commissioner Colopoulos commented that there will still be a need for high netting along the foul ball line. Gordy Lindstrom and Don Aslesen were present to speak for the Little League. Mr. Lindstrom explained that they have met with City staff and discussed the idea of blocking off the roadway. Since that meeting, the Little League has decided that they do not want to see a barricade for stopping traffic along the ball field areas for a number of reasons; 1. They want to see a baseball complex of fields staying grouped together. 2. Accessibility for all. 3. Shorter walking distance for coaches bringing in equipment. The league would, in fact like the roadway to be black topped. He commented that a 40 foot setback from the property line to the new units is very minimal, making the distance to the baseline even tighter. Keeping or closing the road does not create any more space. Mr. Lindstrom said that they really need to acquire some of the Wagner property along the existing roadway. He showed how the re-orientation of field #2 will help the space problem a bit. Commissioner Themig summarized the issues as being; safety, the foul ball problem, and drop off of equipment, with safety being primary. Commissioner Puzak said that the inconvenience of hauling equipment is worth the gain in pedestrian safety. Administrator Hurm asked about the location of netting and poles with the change in field orientation. Lindstrom said the change in the field would somewhat solve the foul ball problem, but netting would be used as needed. Commissioner Themig said that it all comes down to the space not being big enough to accommodate the use it’s getting. Commissioner Colopoulos suggested taking a “wait and see” approach and installing netting for this year with the field in its current position. Commissioner Puzak said that if there is no way to acquire land, then it is up to the Little League to choose field orientation to best suit their needs and the Park Commission should help as best they can. On closing the road to vehicles, it seems to be the right thing from a safety standpoint, even if it may impact a coach. The dust problem will also be helped by that. Nielsen presented another possible land trade option, which could help the ball field configuration, but would reduce parking. Lindstrom pointed out that the other reason Little League is opposed to the suggested plan is that Little League traffic will go through a neighborhood and will draw complaints from residents. There was some discussion about directing visiting teams to the Park Commission Meeting Tuesday, March 9, 1999 Page 9 closest parking area for their game to prevent drivers from being frustrated in finding the correct field. Lindstrom recommended that the Little League not do anything with the Babe Ruth field and just switch to little league play because of the size limitations and awkward shape of land. He added that the association would like to add batting cages to field #3 and will likely come to the Park Commission to propose that in the spring. When asked if the development is likely, Nielsen said the concept plan is approved at 60 or 62 units. Commissioner Puzak pointed out that the option for a land trade had been declined 2 years ago and asked if it is now a possibility. Nielsen said that the deed restrictions were not known. Nielsen will look into that issue. Co-chair Dallman said that if acquiring land is not an option we need to work with what is there. The idea of switching areas with the softball fields was mentioned and deemed impractical. 6. DISCUSSION OF LITTLE LEAGUE PROPOSAL TO SOD FIELD 2, COORDINATION WITH DEVELOPMENT OF THE EAGLECREST PROPERTY AND DISCUSS INSTALLING POLES AND NETTING ALONG THIRD BASE FENCE LINE AT FIELD 2 Commissioner Colopoulos noted that the existing Babe Ruth field can exist in its current configuration. Either way, the nets and poles will need to be installed this year. Re-sodding the field will be put on hold for now. Lindstrom asked if block 2 could be moved within the development to create more space. Nielsen said the wetlands may limit that, but will check into it. Puzak moved, Arnst seconded that the Park Commission graciously allow the Little League Association to resod field #2 if they need to. The motion passed unanimously. Lindstrom asked about the option to acquire 8% of the land rather than the park dedication fee. Nielsen said that the settlement does not allow that option. There was discussion about reconfiguring the layout of trails near the park entrance and new development and possibly saving the roadway. Co-chair Arnst said that signage at the park entrance would help. Nielsen said that his concern is for the property owners so to minimize complaints from them in the future. Co-chair Dallman pointed out that the developer needs to be very aware of that and address it with buyers of the units so they know what to expect. Nielsen asked if there were plans for lighting of the fields. Lindstrom said no, but lights are planned for the softball area. The idea of speed bumps was mentioned and Nielsen said they are not recommended for traffic control. Lindstrom feels it is a detriment to the baseball facilities to close off the road and to have the entrance travel through a neighborhood. 7. REVIEW 1999 "TO DO" LIST A. Make Additions / Deletions Co-Chair Arnst proposed the idea of an Adopt-a-Garden program for Shorewood. This would Park Commission Meeting Tuesday, March 9, 1999 Page 10 involve advertising to the community for volunteers to create and maintain flower gardens at park entrances and City Hall. The Public Works Department will prepare the soil. Co-chair Arnst volunteered herself and Commissioner Bensman to work with it. There was consensus that the suggestion is a good idea. Commissioner Colopoulos also volunteered to be on the committee. Co-chair Arnst asked if the Commission should revisit the purpose of the Park Foundation. Co- chair Dallman said that was the original idea but the focus has changed and interest has gone down since the concession stand idea was changed to a multi-use building. Co-chair Arnst recommended a sub-committee be formed to encourage a broader view for the Park Foundation. Co-chair Dallman and Commissioner Cochran will be on the committee. Commissioner Themig asked that the issue of a fiscal policy be included with sports organization policy development. Commissioner Colopoulos recommended that the decision of changing the park dedication fee be acted on soon. The fiscal policy and park dedication fee are separate issues. All will be addressed at the March 23 meeting. Commissioner Themig still plans to create a park history piece and asked for that to be on the list of things to do. 8. DISCUSSION OF CHANGE IN PARK DEDICATION FEES CONSISTENT WITH FISCAL POLICY Tabled until March 23. 9. CONSIDER RECOMMENDATION OF THE RE-APPOINTMENT OF KEN DALLMAN AS A PARK COMMISSION MEMBER OF PARK FOUNDATION Themig moved, Arnst seconded a recommendation of the re-appointment of Ken Dallman as a Park Commission member of the Park Foundation. Motion passed unanimously. 10. OTHER BUSINESS Co-chair Arnst asked that the meeting “to-do lists” be resurrected (like the lists that resulted from the park tours last year). This will include items for the commission to do as well as staff projects. Commissioner Colopoulos reported on the March Planning Commission meeting. They are trying to consider what remaining parcels of land would be used for in the context of senior housing. Commissioner Colopoulos suggested that recommendations be made to the Planning Commission regarding survey results, which indicate a strong interest in green space for future policies. Administrator Hurm said the Planning Commission will consider the Eagle Crest (actually “Shorewood Ponds”) proposal at their April 6 meeting. 11. NEW BUSINESS A. Develop Agenda for Next Work Session and April Meeting Park Commission Meeting Tuesday, March 9, 1999 Page 11 Commissioner Themig encouraged that future issues such as the ball field question be addressed at a work session, rather than the regular meeting and to save regular meetings for focusing on policy issues instead. There was clarification that Colopoulos is March liaison to Council and Dallman is April liaison. 12. ADJOURNMENT Colopoulos moved, Arnst seconded to adjourn the meeting. Motion passed 6/0. The meeting adjourned at 10:30 p.m. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED Connie Bastyr Recording Secretary