010802 PK MIN
CITY OF SHOREWOOD 5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
PARK COMMISSION MEETING COUNCIL CHAMBERS
TUESDAY, JANUARY 8, 2002 7:30 P.M.
MINUTES
1. CONVENE PARK COMMISSION MEETING
Chair Arnst called the meeting to order at 7:30 P.M.
A. Roll Call
Present: Chair Arnst; Commissioners Puzak, Callies, Dallman, and Young; City Administrator
Dawson; City Engineer Brown; and Mark Koegler of Hoisington Koegler Group
Excused Absent: Commissioners Meyer and Bix
B. Review Agenda
Puzak moved, Dallman seconded, approving the Agenda as presented. Motion passed 5/0.
2. APPROVAL OF MINUTES
A.
Park Commission and City Council Work Session Minutes of December 11, 2001
Callies moved, Puzak seconded, approving the Park Commission and City Council Work Session
Minutes of December 11, 2001. Motion passed 5/0.
B. Park Commission Meeting Minutes of December 11, 2001
Administrator Dawson referred to his memorandum dated January 7, 2002, which changes paragraph 5 of
page three to read: “Dawson stated that due to levy limits the Council had asked the Park Commission to
review the user fee, with the intent to restore the balance to the park improvement fund and to regain the
outlay for Eddy Station.”
Puzak moved, Callies seconded, accepting the Park Commission Minutes of December 11, 2001 as
amended by Administrator Dawson’s memorandum dated January 7, 2002. Motion passed 5/0.
3. MATTERS FROM THE FLOOR
There were none.
4. REPORTS
Postponed for discussion following items 5 A - G.
5. DISCUSSION OF PARK MANAGEMENT & PLANNING
Chair Arnst asked that discussion begin with item B.
Engineer Brown introduced Mark Koegler of the Hoisington Koegler Group pointing out that Mr. Koegler
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TUESDAY, JANUARY 8, 2002
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was present at the joint Park Commission and City Council meeting of December 11, 2001. He added that the
parking and field inventory report of the evening was merely a draft report that Commissioners had not yet
seen or had time to comment on until now.
B. Report on Freeman Park Field Inventory and Parking Study
Mr. Koegler presented the Freeman Park Parking Analysis and indicated that he would walk the
Commissioners through the presentation pointing out the finer points. He stated that his charge was to
objectively look at parking and issues that have arisen since the original master plan was developed in
1990.
Simply stated, Mr. Koegler agreed that a parking problem exists at Freeman Park. He maintained that the
problem might be due to one of two conditions, 1) a shortage of off-street parking or 2) over use of facilities
creating excessive parking demand. He acknowledged that although passive uses do generate a need for
parking, the amount of demand is insignificant compared to the demand generated by active facilities. In his
analysis, Koegler examined the original park master plan, the current use of the park, standards used by other
area communities, and general observations and recommendations.
Based on the original Park Master Plan, a number of major active park facilities were identified, including
softball fields, soccer fields, baseball fields, Multi-use building, picnic shelter, and tennis courts. Based on
the uses identified in the original plan, Freeman Park had a planned parking demand that ranged from 264 to
304 spaces. Koegler continued that the master plan provided 355 spaces within five planned lots.
When the master plan was completed in 1990, Koegler pointed out that concurrent use of all active
recreational facilities was not envisioned. As a result, it was felt that the parking supply would reasonably
serve the planned facilities, and allow for excess spaces based on one space per participant.
Freeman Park today differs from the master plan of 1990 in a couple of ways. Koegler pointed out that lot 5
was never constructed reducing supply to 314 actual spaces. The loop road was modified and is now not a
continuous loop, creating a more difficult situation for park patrons having to access two separate areas.
Koegler identified that the two most significant changes to Freeman involve the concurrent use of all active
park facilities including baseball, softball, soccer and picnic/multi-use building and the expansion of the use
of soccer areas in a manner not articulated in the master plan. By adding the current soccer use scenarios to
the use of other facilities, Koegler demonstrated that the demand totals approximately 288 to 393 parking
spaces. With an existing supply of 314 spaces, he maintained that the parking supply ranges from + 26 to - 79
spaces at one space per participant at any given time. Furthermore car-pooling may affect these numbers as
well.
Mr. Koegler then shared information regarding the parking standards used in seven other communities, which
revealed a number of facts to consider in analyzing parking at Freeman Park. First, the cities noted used a
parking standard that ranged from one space per participant to two spaces per participant. Secondly, the
surveys highlight the overlap problem that exists in most of the communities. He pointed out that only
Minnetonka seeks to manage the overlap by staggering game schedules by 15 minutes. Currently, Freeman
Park schedules games back-to-back creating overlap problems.
In general, Koegler maintained that Freeman Park is being used in a manner that differs from that envisioned
in the original master plan. It is being used more intensively in terms of the concurrent use of the park
facilities and the more intensive use of the areas in the park devoted to youth soccer. Koegler continued, that
if the City of Shorewood wants to at least reduce the parking problems, consideration needs to be given to
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TUESDAY, JANUARY 8, 2002
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adding additional off-street parking and/or reducing the number of activities that are occurring on a
concurrent basis.
From discussions with the City, Koegler believed that adding parking which would displace passive areas in
the park that are now open, wooded areas and trails, was out of the question. A balance between both active
and passive facilities to serve a broad range of community interests needs to be maintained.
Koegler suggested that a more realistic approach would be to expand lot 4. The expansion would add a net of
76 additional parking spaces bringing the total off-street supply to 390.
Koegler stated that, clearly, overlap needs to be addressed at Freeman. He continued that the issue could be
addressed by staggering game times by at least 15 minutes. In 1997, it was noted that games were staggered
by 20 minutes with a notable decrease in parking problems. Koegler indicated that while staggering games
should help parking shortages, changes in park usage may also be necessary.
Mr. Koegler made several recommendations for consideration. First, by implementing a series of changes
over the next two to three seasons, changes would be adopted gradually. The changes consisted of:
Initiate staggered game times of at least 15 minutes
?
Expand parking lot 4 as drafted in the original master plan
?
Build-in excess capacity to accommodate overlap when managing total parking supply
?
Manage the use of active facilities consistent with available parking
?
Koegler pointed out that cooperation of both the sports organizations and MCES is imperative in solving the
parking problems that currently exist. He added that a meeting with the various affected sports organizations
that use Freeman Park, as well as, with MCES would be the next step to carrying this issue forward.
Chair Arnst asked for Commission comments and questions.
Commissioner Puzak had two questions. First, he disagreed that TUSA split the fields into13 smaller fields
other than on tournament weekends and argued that during other times that fields were split, the same number
of players use the fields. Second, by enlarging parking lot 4, he asked whether the City could identify the lots
on either side of the park as either soccer or baseball. Finally, he added that in many instances participants
are using two spaces at events.
Chair Arnst asked about the possibility of establishing a more formalized working relationship with the sports
organizations. As discussed in previous meetings, could we invite leaders or boards of the sports
organizations to talk through our policies and share what we’ve learned through our parking inventory study.
She hoped this cooperative effort might afford us an opportunity to encourage better communication among
organizations and their members, as well as, promote car-pooling etc.
Mayor Love inquired what impact recommending a 15-minute minimum separation might have on the sports
organizations. Would this cause the organizations to drop a game each night or force them to play under dim
lighting, thus, safety concerns arise. Puzak felt the sports organizations would support a separation between
games. We simply need to state that the separation between games is mandatory.
Callies asked why the separation did not continue after 1997. Both Puzak and Chair Arnst believed that it
was due to a lack of communication. Puzak questioned the impact of a 20-minute separation or longer and
asked Koegler to investigate that possibility.
Chair Arnst indicated that a meeting with the sports organizations would be scheduled for the end of March.
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TUESDAY, JANUARY 8, 2002
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She asked Koegler if this allowed him time to complete his analysis and present it at the February meeting.
He saw no difficulties with this, however, asked that changes be submitted to him within a week’s time.
D. Review, Discuss and Make Further Recommendations on Draft User Policies
Chair Arnst moved on to discuss the User Policies drafted by Engineer Brown. She asked for discussion and
recommendations of the Facility Use Regulations and complimented Brown on the outline.
Chair Arnst herself asked that a bullet point be added saying that all park ordinances apply and attach a copy
of them.
Puzak then inquired whether an ordinance would be required to impose a $200. fine. Brown stated that it
would and that he needs to check with the City Attorney before getting an ordinance in place. Puzak
suggested adding that the fine would be imposed in addition to any damage done.
Puzak asked Koegler to further clarify the use of green space outside the designated fields as he revised the
study.
Mayor Love asked who would personally be responsible for the fines. Is it the person who signs the
agreement who is personally responsible? Dawson stated that it does not speak to the organization and
indicates that the individual is personally responsible. Is it the individual on the paper who is responsible or
the person caught Mayor Love questioned.
Young asked how we could hold a person accountable and/or responsible for controlling all of the people on
the fields, including a viewer at a specific game who breaks the rules. He believed posting signage on fields
would be adequate, but found it unrealistic to have the representative of that organization held personally
responsible.
Brown maintained that the violations typically occur by people on the fields working for the organizations,
the set up crews, vendors, retrievers, and the biff people driving across the fields. He pointed out that no
matter how much his staff has tried to communicate the no driving on the fields’ rule; organizers have not
followed through.
Mayor Love stated that even sports organizations have said that they have difficulty keeping track of their
teams, players, coaches, by standers etc. to make sure they are following the rules. While he appreciates their
dilemma, in turn, they are asking the City to step in to that role otherwise. He argued that it is really the
teams who have to be held accountable for the behaviors of everyone who is there under their watch. Mayor
Love maintained that accountability needs to start with the person who signs these forms.
Brown stated that the City of Shorewood has no way of tracking a vendor back to see who is accountable, that
is why we need to force the sports organizations to do so. We need just one sole contact person. Brown
recognized that refinement might need to be made over who the individual drivers are.
Puzak stated that he was uncomfortable with holding someone accountable from the community, a volunteer,
who would be fined for someone else’s actions. Puzak stated that if the City is looking for leverage it should
require a damage deposit be put down by the organizations.
Brown concurred that the City needs to have an ordinance and post signage that no driving on the grass/field
is allowed, perhaps the fine could be taken out of the regulation.
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Mayor Love indicated that via conversations with Brian Tichy, it was he who suggested having one person
accountable on the form from the City and Sports Organizations. He understood that while his name was on
the line for the $200 fine, he would stand up for it, and the league would pay back the money.
Callies believed that one person should be held accountable as a representative to an organization. She
maintained that when someone rents a party room they become responsible for the behavior of their guests.
Dawson added that the organizations do know who is using each of the fields and the organization should take
the accountability actions with its own members when at fault. Callies pointed out that the consensus seems to
support the accountability and one contact issue, but should consider taking out the fine.
Chair Arnst agreed that a damage deposit might be a better way to go. She questioned the legalities of having
an individual person sign as representative of the group and the City ever really being able to collect from the
individual. Chair Arnst did however maintain that the three strike rule still apply.
Young wondered why if it isn’t worth charging the sports organizations for the small damages done to
sprinkler heads, how is it worth writing more rules that we cannot enforce. Brown agreed that by posting
signage and keeping track of infractions the City is in a better position of later enforcing the three-strike rule.
Callies suggested that the City work out a joint use agreement with each of the larger sports organizations.
Each organization would sign an individual agreement with the City after we’ve cooperatively reviewed each
other’s expectations and they clearly understand our position.
Young then recommended changing the name of the contract to the Facility Use Agreement instead of
Regulations, in order to reflect this joint agreement.
Mayor Love asked Brown how removing the $200 fine impacts his position. Brown stated that the
enforcement issue has been the hardest one facing his public works people. They constantly try to educate the
participants, coaches, and organizations daily on the fields, and no sooner do they do so, the groups do as they
please once public works has left. He stated that he was clearly frustrated and at a loss. Puzak asked if an
ordinance would help. He said that it would in a punitive way, however, he believed it failed to motivate the
representatives of the organizations to communicate the rules to everyone. Brown indicated that, at this point,
it would be worth the try, to change the language, institute an ordinance, and post signage.
Chair Arnst stated that the Commission ask City Council for an ordinance, if one does not already exist,
prohibiting unauthorized motorized vehicles from the fields. Chair Arnst also asked to have the suspension
over the use of the facilities statement in the closing paragraph moved up to a bullet point.
C. Report on MCES Interest in Field Scheduling for 2002
Administrator Dawson reported that MCES is planning to offer the same level of block scheduling as they
provided in 2001, and is currently putting together a proposal for expanded levels of service to examine in
2002 for the 2003 season. Chair Arnst stated that the proposal should be ready for examination after January
21, 2002.
Puzak questioned the status of the software that was offered for purchase by the City of Shorewood. Brown
stated that MCES has shown no interest in receiving the software. Dawson indicated that from his
conversations with MCES, they have no interest in the software and their administrative support person has
been cut back to three-quarter time eliminating this opportunity.
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Chair Arnst asked staff to check to see if MCES would like to include the purchase of the software in their
proposal.
A. Review and Discuss Administrator’s Memo of 12-19-01
Chair Arnst referred to the memorandum from Administrator Dawson summarizing the joint work session of
December 11, 2001. As mentioned in the memo, she reinforced the need for a late March meeting with sports
organizations in order for the City to discuss their new policies, give Mark Koegler an opportunity to share
the capacity study, and as Jeff Bailey suggested, offer the organizations a forum to work out their scheduling
together with the City.
Dawson pointed out that his memorandum was based on his observations of the meeting, and not necessarily,
a consensus of the members present. His use of the word consensus may have been too strong.
Callies questioned the efficiency of the City and its Commissioners working on scheduling. She felt it would
be rather chaotic.
Chair Arnst suggested using Mark Koegler as the neutral third party facilitator directing the meeting. Since
he will be present sharing the capacity study, it would be logical to have him stay to direct the meeting, which
could include the scheduling. Similar to MCES, Chair Arnst believed the City could offer its support and
open the lines of communication in order to optimize scheduling efforts.
Young maintained that the sports organizations should be informed ahead of time so that their main contact
person is present to go over the new agreement and schedule fields.
E. Review, Discuss and Prioritize Issues as Defined at Meeting of 12-11-01
Chair Arnst referred to her Park Management issues list asking for discussion and/or prioritizing.
Based on discussion, Chair Arnst will rewrite the list of issues omitting items 2, 7, 8, 15, 16, and 17, which
were essentially consolidated and/or addressed in other areas and have it to present in February.
Within item 13, Puzak argued that there is perceived ownership by the sports organizations who have
virtually made all the improvements that have been done over the years to the parks and maintained that it
will be difficult to change that way of thinking. He continued that he believed we need to become
comfortable with that mind set. Mayor Love emphasized that while it is important to recognize that the sports
organizations have been good stewards of our ballparks, the City sets the rules, issues the permits, and owns
the parks. Brown pointed out that the Mayor is referring to ownership, while Puzak is referring to investment,
which are two entirely different perspectives. Confusion seems to have existed in the past. Dawson stated
that the organizations simply need to understand that permission is needed to make improvements to the
parks. Chair Arnst added that a balance needs to be struck between the contributions and investment made by
these organizations and the opportunity for others to use that facility.
Callies noted that from her perspective, much of the discussion raised at the joint meeting centered on
whether we were going to even go with MCES for scheduling or come up with another alternative. She asked
if that had changed, and believed it sounded as if the decision to work with MCES had already been made
without further investigation. Chair Arnst maintained that there had not actually been any proposal presented
by MCES at this time. Callies concluded from the meeting that for the upcoming season we had to use
MCES, but all of these issues and alternatives would be examined for the future.
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Chair Arnst emphasized that the City and Park Commission wants to establish face to face communication
with the sports organizations. These meetings, in turn, would pave the way to introducing new policies and
contacts once or twice a year keeping the flow of information available. Callies questioned the efficiency of
having the Park Commission run these meetings and doing the sports scheduling. Adding that, supposedly,
that was the reason we used MCES, a staff person/coordinator, or outside contractor in the first place. Chair
Arnst agreed that this issue needs to be further discussed at a work session.
8. NEW BUSINESS
Brown reported that the City has implemented a sports user fee with the hockey associations. Twila has
been in communication with the associations and has not been received well. Brown pointed out that half
of the objection has stemmed from confusion and half from those who do understand and are opposed to
it. The confusion has been created off of a memo that someone had been circulating misinforming users
that the fee is paid per use and not per season. Brown stated however that once the confusion had been
cleared, individuals still were opposed to the fees.
Brown continued that while one coach has agreed to the fee, the majority has transferred their games to
other rinks. He stated that he has received many calls on this matter and wanted the Commission to be
aware of the issue if they were contacted. He added that he has invited the disgruntled users to write or
attend meetings themselves to voice their opposition.
Chair Arnst agreed that the leaders or boards should be invited to a Park Commission meeting to learn the
rational behind the user fee and voice their concerns. She added that an article should be submitted to run
in the March newsletter which explains the sports user fee and the four year process that led up to its
introduction.
Mayor Love reported that the Watershed District committed an additional $350,000 for the Gideon Glen
project. He stated that sometime during the next few years the Gideon Glen interpretive area would
become a part of the Park Commission’s jurisdiction.
6. DISCUSS PARK LIAISON FOR LAND CONSERVATION ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE
Callies reported that no meetings have taken place or been scheduled. Chair Arnst tabled discussion until
February.
Council Member Turgeon, just returning from a Planning Commission work session, asked to add a piece of
new business. As a part of the planning district review, she pointed out that there is a small piece of land by
the southeast water tower, on the south side by the cemetery, that has come up for discussion. The question
arises whether the Park Commission would like to use this area, the old public wayside, for any special park
purpose. The Planning Commission would like the Park Commission to discuss whether or not they would
like to add it to part of their master plan and approach MnDOT in order to procure the parcel for parkland or
for public use. Chair Arnst asked that the topic be added to the February agenda.
7. APPOINT PARK LIAISONS FOR FEBRUARY CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS
While Commissioner Callies will act as February liaison for the 11th and 25th, Chair Arnst volunteered for
the March 11th and 25th City Council meetings.
9. ADJOURNMENT
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Dallman moved, Young seconded, adjourning the Regular Park Commission Meeting of January 8,
2002 at 9:43 P.M. Motion passed 5/0.
RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED,
Kristi B. Anderson
RECORDING SECRETARY