100609 pl mn
CITY OF SHOREWOOD COUNCIL CHAMBERS
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING 5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
TUESDAY, 6 OCTOBER 2009 7:00 P.M.
MINUTES
CALL TO ORDER
Chair Geng called the meeting to order at 7:00 P.M.
ROLL CALL
Present: Chair Geng; Commissioners Arnst, Gagne, Hasek, Ruoff and Vilett; Planning Director
Nielsen; and Council Liaison Turgeon
Absent: Commissioner Hutchins
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
15 September 2009
Gagne moved, Hasek seconded, Approving the Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of 15
September 2009 as presented. Motion passed 6/0.
1. COMPREHENSIVE PLAN – DISCUSS LAND USE CHAPTER
Director Nielsen stated the City’s Comprehensive Plan (Comp Plan) has been submitted to the
Metropolitan Council (Met Council) for review. Met Council staff has identified certain areas of the
updated Comp Plan that they deem are “incomplete for review”. Some requests will result in minor text
changes being made. For example, Met Council staff wants the City to add language relative to notifying
the Minnesota Department of Transportation and the Federal Aviation Administration of installing any
structure that is higher than 200 feet. Other requests for things such as detailed projections of land use,
sewer flow by interceptor, and timing of future development will take considerable City staff time. An
issue that was raised regarding land use warrants discussion by the Planning Commission and the City
Council.
Nielsen explained the Met Council wants a minimum of three units per acre for new development, and a
minimum of five units per acre for redevelopment and infill. This doesn’t make sense from a planning
perspective and it would affect the character of the community. For example, the lots on the western side
of the City are located in a one-acre zoning district. If a house were to be taken down on one of those lots
it would make no sense to replace it with five units. Prior to this meeting he and some of the Planning
Commissioners had an informal discussion about identifying some areas in the City that could possibly be
suited for somewhat higher densities. It’s possible that some type mixed use development with a higher
density residential component could be done at the northwest corner of the County Road 19 and
Smithtown Road intersection. The Comp Plan already indicates that if/when the area where Xcel Energy
is located is redeveloped it could be a mixed use development with a higher density residential
component. The Commissioners did not think it made sense to have high density areas in existing low
density areas.
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6 October 2009
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Nielsen indicated senior housing could make sense for the higher density residential developments
because there will be an increasing market for senior housing in the future. He explained the Comp Plan
already allows for senior housing to be higher density. Senior housing may also address the Met
Council’s requirement to have the Comp Plan acknowledge the need for 53 units of affordable housing in
the next 11 years. The Commissioners discussed a number of limiting factors. There is not a City-wide
water system throughout the City; it would not be possible to build high-density developments without it.
There is little mass transit in the City and that limits high density developments, in particular multiple
family housing.
Nielsen recommended Staff prepare draft text that would explain the City’s position on its land use plan
and identify a few locations that could potentially be suitable for high density housing. Hopefully that
would satisfy the Met Council.
Commissioner Hasek requested that the Planning Commission be provided with any information that
Staff would use in justifying the City’s position. For example, the fact that there are only two mass transit
corridors in the City is a constraint.
Director Nielsen explained one of the biggest constraining factors is the City is 94 percent developed. Not
much of the remaining 6 percent exists on State Highway 7 or County Road 19. The largest parcel of land
in the City is approximately 20 acres in size with 11 acres of it being wetland, and the remainder is zoned
for half acre lots. The property is located near Vine Hill Road. The traffic in the Vine Hill Road and Old
Market Road area is already too heavy; high density development would only exacerbate the problem.
There are two larger parcels of land at the end of Mill Street that are quite developable. There has been
discussion about the Minnetonka Country Club property and the potential to redevelop part of the
property as higher density residential while leaving a portion of it for a nine-hole golf course. He noted
one of the maps included in the Comp Plan shows any parcel of land in the City which is greater than two
acres.
Nielsen stated the Met Council has asked the City to project what larger lots would likely be split into
smaller lots between now and 2030. The land use map will be modified to include the date 2030 and Staff
will just do some straight line projections to satisfy the request while knowing full well the projections
have little value to the City. The Met Council also wants the City to prepare a sewer map which reflects
all of the Met Council’s interceptors on it and to project the City’s sewage flow to each interceptor based
on future development or redevelopment.
Chair Geng asked if the City responds to the Met Council’s directive would it become part of the Comp
Plan. Director Nielsen indicated it would. Nielsen explained the text in the Comp Plan will qualify that
the Met Council required the City to project when the lots splits would occur, and that the City has no
way of knowing when that will happen even though it made the projections. Commissioner Arnst asked if
the requests were actually mandates. Nielsen stated the letter from the Met Council stating the City’s
Comp Plan is “incomplete for review” usually would mean that some information is missing. In this
instance the Comp Plan is also being called incomplete because it doesn’t say what the Met Council
wants it so say. Nielsen commented that after talking with other cities it appears that on average a city
receives three rejection letters from the Met Council.
Director Nielsen stated in 2005 the City satisfied a Met Council request by including that for future
development of the Xcel energy site the City would likely consider a mixed use development which
would include a residential component. The City tried to build a case that if Shorewood was viewed from
the perspective of being part of the South Lake community the community is relatively complete. The
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City of Excelsior has high density housing, it has a commercial district, and it has jobs. The other three
cities are somewhat suburbs of that. Council Liaison Turgeon stated that the City of Deephaven should be
included as part of the South Lake community.
Nielsen then stated the Met Council wants the City to include a transit map as part of its Comp Plan. He
explained there is a park-and-ride lot north of City Hall and bus service stops there twice a day during the
week. The lot is seldom used. Metro Transit has informed the City that it has no plans to expand that
service.
Commissioner Arnst stated she has been a little involved with the mayors participating in the housing
initiative study, and through that she has heard discussion about the need for a variety of housing choices
on the regional level. She recommended the reports from that study be reviewed to determine if some of
its findings should be incorporated into the Comp Plan. Nielsen commented that not every city can be
everything to all people. He stated the City is trying to be a “bedroom suburb”; it’s not trying to be an
employment center or a commercial center. The residents in this area want space around them.
Commissioner Hasek stated developers are conveying that having a convenience store on the corner in
every neighborhood is not the way to go because no one can make money in those locations. That may
work near a six-story building in the downtown area of a large city, but not in Shorewood. Arnst stated
the mixed use buildings with retail on the bottom and residential above are not working out as planned.
Nielsen commented that years ago people did live over a store, but that was in large part because they
owned the store. People don’t want that anymore.
Director Nielsen stated if residents want their communities to offer all choices in housing then the
community should. But, if they want half-acre lots they should be able to have that choice.
Commissioner Hasek stated that during a Sensible Land Use Coalition program a while back there was
discussion about the redevelopment of the Excelsior and Grand area in the City of St. Louis Park. The
residential component is doing well but the commercial component is not doing as well. Commissioner
Vilett cited the Glen Lake project in Minnetonka which is similar.
In response to a comment from Council Liaison Turgeon, Director Nielsen explained the Comp Plan
states if the Howard’s Point Marina were to cease being a marina then the property can be subdivided into
one-acre lots. It’s zoned for that and that is what surrounds the area.
Commissioner Arnst stated one of the issues with having three units or five units per acre residential
development is many of the City’s roadways are substandard. They can’t even handle a school bus let
alone the increase in traffic. She suggested that issue be conveyed.
Director Nielsen again stated he will draft a sample of text that will identify a couple of areas that could
possibly be developed as higher density residential and indicate the City wants to study that further. The
City could consider census data as part of its study or it could do some other market study. He will also
draft a cover letter explaining why the City would not consider higher density residential development
throughout the City. It would identify the limitations created by substandard streets, limited mass transit,
the lack of a City-wide water system, the amount of wetland and the existing character of neighborhoods.
Commissioner Hasek commented the City’s open spaces are not as buildable as they appear from a
cursory level.
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Council Liaison Turgeon asked that the Comp Plan be revised and resubmitted to the Met Council within
the next 30 days. Director Nielsen explained the sewer interceptor identification and flow projections
cannot be completed in that timeframe.
Commissioner Arnst stated she thought the idea of telling the Met Council that the City will review
census data as part of its study is a good one. She questioned if the City could gather other data on its own
that would be beneficial. She asked if the two large parcels of land at the end of Mill Street could be
considered for higher density residential development. Director Nielsen stated he did not think those
parcels are not suitable for that.
Commissioner Vilett cited a development in Chanhassen where there were ten houses built with each lot
being approximately one quarter of an acre in size. The properties sold for in the neighborhood of
$400,000. That price doesn’t fit in with what the Met Council deems affordable housing.
Director Nielsen stated selling the need for affordable and high density housing to residents will not be
easy.
Commissioner Hasek stated if the five-units-per-acre criteria were to be used as the goal it would require
approximately 12 acres of land to reach a goal of 60 affordable housing units in the City. He asked how
large the parcel of land across from Freeman Park was. He wondered if it was six acres in size. Director
Nielsen stated it might be close to that size. Hasek stated what is needed is a couple of parcels of land that
size to build the required 53 units of affordable housing. Nielsen noted the City went to court over a
senior housing project that was five units per acre. Nielsen stated the Eureka Road and Highway 7
intersection is not a great intersection. Hasek stated that is a good reason why what looks like a great
parcel of land for higher density housing really isn’t. The 20-acre parcel of land on Vine Hill Road is
more than half wetland, and traffic at the Vine Hill Road and Highway 7 intersection is already an issue.
He suggested the letter identify those areas that may look like opportunities and then explain why they are
not.
Council Liaison Turgeon explained the reason she requested the Comp Plan be revised and resubmitted to
the Met Council in 30 days was to put it back in the Met Council’s hands. Director Nielsen stated it’s his
intent to have it resubmitted by the end of the year. He noted Staff and the Planning Commission use the
Comp Plan regularly. He stated doing the sewer interceptor sewage projections doesn’t provide the City
with any value; it’s of value to the Met Council. He indicated that the request to notify the FAA if a
structure higher than 200 feet goes up in the City can be added to the Comp Plan in October. He can also
change the Land Use Map from saying 0 – 1 units per acre to 0.1 – 1 units per acre. Those types of
changes can be done quickly.
Commissioner Arnst stated for the sake of conversation density does have its place. The weakness with
Met Council’s approach is that it wants that every place and that isn’t a reality. She commented that when
it comes to services and infrastructure it’s cheaper to have a road that serves 50 units rather than just
fifteen units.
Director Nielsen stated that from his perspective a goal for a community ought to be to provide some
choice. He again reiterated not all cities can be all things to all people. He explained when he first started
his tenure with the City the City had lots that were one acre in size. The City now has some lots that are a
quarter acre in size, it has an apartment complex and there is some senior housing.
Commissioner Arnst asked Director Nielsen to find out what the Met Council is currently calling
affordable housing, and determine how many units the City has. Commissioner Hasek stated a few years
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ago the affordable amount was $150,000. Commissioner Vilett stated the City does not have any housing
that is valued at $150,000 or less. Director Nielsen stated according to realtors 3 – 4 years ago there was
nothing cheaper than $200,000.
Director Nielsen noted the City amended its ordinance to state lots cannot be combined to a size greater
than 1.5 times the size of the original lot size.
Nielsen stated he has requested a map from the Met Council indicating where its interceptors are for the
entire South Lake area. He noted that some of the City’s sewage flows into the City of Excelsior’s sewer
system. He stated he has not been provided a map. The Met Council has stated the City has the
information it needs.
2. MATTERS FROM THE FLOOR
There were no matters from the floor presented this evening.
3. DRAFT NEXT MEETING AGENDA
Currently, the next Planning Commission meeting is scheduled for November 17, 2009. The agenda for
that meeting was not been drafted.
4. REPORTS
• Liaison to Council
No report was given.
• SLUC
No report was given.
• Other
Commissioner Arnst asked Director Nielsen to remind Council during the October 12, 2009, Council
meeting that the Planning Commission had passed a motion recommending Council adopt a resolution
asking Hennepin County to clarify the signage at the trail crossings and that the resolution be passed on to
neighboring cities for their support.
Council Liaison Turgeon stated the Excelsior Fire District Open House and Safety Fair is scheduled for
October 8, 2009, from 6:00 P.M. – 8:30 P.M., and the grand re-opening of the Southshore Community
Center is scheduled for October 9, 2009, from 6:00 P.M. – 9:00 P.M.
5. ADJOURNMENT
Vilett moved, Hasek seconded, Adjourning the Planning Commission Meeting of 6 October 2009 at
7:40 P.M. Motion passed 7/0.
RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED,
Christine Freeman, Recorder