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08-28-23 CC WS MinutesCITY OF SHOREWOOD 5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION MEETING COUNCIL CHAMBERS MONDAY, AUGUST 28, 2023 6:00 P.M. MINUTES 1. CONVENE CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION MEETING Mayor Labadie called the meeting to order at 6:00 P.M. A. Roll Call Present. Mayor Labadie; Councilmembers Callies, Sanschagrin, and Zerby; City Attorney Koch; City Administrator Nevinski; Parks and Recreation Director Crossfield; and Planning Director Darling Absent: Councilmember Maddy B. Review Agenda Zerby moved, Sanschagrin seconded, approving the agenda as presented. Motion passed 4/0. 2. SMOKING IN PUBLIC SPACES City Administrator Nevinski noted that this agenda item is about traditional smoking with tobacco products, but also the new cannabis legalization. He stated that this is something that was pointed out by the League of Minnesota Cities that the law is silent on whether or not cannabis use in public, such as parks, is an allowable use. He noted that many cities have smoking bans in parks, but Shorewood does not have that in place. He explained that some cities have gone the route of prohibiting all cannabis use in public, for example, Excelsior. He stated that he also believes that Tonka Bay and Greenwood are considering similar ordinances. He shared examples from other cities and what they have done about use in public spaces. He stated that staff is looking for input from the Council on whether or not they want to prohibit the use of cannabis in public places or if they want to include smoking, in general, in those rules. He stated that he feels it is important for the Council to keep in mind that the SLMPD will be asked to enforce whatever decision that they come to. He introduced Leah Koch and Campbell Knutson, who was filling in for City Attorney Shepherd tonight. Mayor Labadie noted that staff had included the ordinance passed by Excelsior in their packet and asked what the vote was on that item. City Administrator Nevinski stated that he did not know the exact vote tally. Mayor Labadie noted that she is the liaison to the SLMPD and noted that Chief Tholen has stated numerous times that an ordinance or something his department is expected to enforce, is easier if all four of the cities have identical or similar language. She gave the example of all four cities having different language surrounding dogs running at large which makes it difficult for the officers. She stated that the language in the proposed ordinance is similar to Excelsior, but not CITY OF SHOREWOOD WORK SESSION COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES AUGUST 28, 2023 Page 2 of 6 identical, but noted that Shorewood's language matches the State Statute. She asked City Attorney Koch to weigh in on that point. City Attorney Koch stated that within the State Statute it allows for local municipalities to establish this as a petty misdemeanor for public consumption and explained that the only limitation is that it excludes one, two, and three. She referenced language used in Excelsior's ordinance and noted that she preferred the proposed version for Shorewood because it is more enforceable and defined. Mayor Labadie stated that one thing that concerns her is whether the Council would be passing this with the intent that the police will ticket someone and enforce it or if it was being done as `lip service'. She stated that she feels all four member cities are very different with relation to their public spaces. Councilmember Zerby stated that he would like to know `why' the City is doing this and noted that if the reason was that they do not want people getting high in the parks, this would not preclude edibles. He stated that if the `why' was the smoke part of it and that people do not like the smell of it, then he feels it should extend to tobacco products also. He stated that he would also like to know about use while driving and noted that as he reads the proposed language, people would not be able to smoke in their car because they would be on a public road that is government controlled. He explained that he did not see any harm in allowing somebody to smoke in their car. He stated that he shared Mayor Labadie's concern about enforcement but noted that he felt the City should have some controls in place. City Attorney Koch noted that regarding use in vehicles according to the State Statute, it is a crime to possess cannabis products in a motor vehicle. She stated that you cannot use it or possess it unless it is in a closed package, similar to alcohol. Councilmember Sanschagrin asked if people were currently allowed to smoke right next to the players that may be on the fields. Mayor Labadie confirmed that as of right now there are no restrictions on smoking in the parks. Councilmember Sanschagrin explained that he was for freedom, in general, but in a situation where there is secondhand smoke, it creates issues with people being able to have clean air. He stated that he would be in favor of at least restricting it somewhat and suggested that perhaps there are set places within the parks where people could be allowed to smoke that would be away from where children will be located. Councilmember Callies stated that she agreed with most of his comments but was not sure how she felt about having a designated smoking place. She stated that she felt that the City should also regulate tobacco if they are going to be doing it for other products. She noted that she also had concerns about the enforceability but noted that this is a petty misdemeanor and did not want the City to try to turn it into a felony type issue and use it as a reason to stop citizens. Mayor Labadie stated that she thinks about the large-scale baseball events at Freeman South where it is signed and marked 'No Parking' and people still park all over. She stated that then residents begin calling the police who then go out and write tickets and then the Monday after those tournaments, she gets inundated with calls from people who were unhappy. She stated CITY OF SHOREWOOD WORK SESSION COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES AUGUST 28, 2023 Page 3 of 6 that she knows that it has often led to times where people are berating the officers. She stated that if this is a petty misdemeanor she wonders if the City would really enforce it and at what level. Councilmember Zerby stated that he feels this ordinance, as written, would also ban use on sidewalks and streets. City Attorney Koch stated that was correct and explained that some cities had taken a two -fold approach where they regulate parks one way but have a lower standard for other public spaces. She noted that some cities have specified parks alone and have not touched other public spaces. Councilmember Zerby explained that he keeps thinking of cul-de-sac parties and neighbors sitting together in their lawn chairs wanting to smoke or have a drink, and with this, that would not be allowed. Councilmember Callies suggested that it may make sense to add beverage restrictions within the parks. Mayor Labadie noted that she thought the City already had restrictions in place for beverages and believed that it is only legally allowed in Badger Park if the event has applied for a permit. Councilmember Callies asked how it came about that the City did not regulate tobacco use within the parks. Councilmember Zerby knows that they have discussed it before but Council never took any action. Mayor Labadie noted that she feels it was because the City does not hold many events throughout the year. Councilmember Callies stated that may be true, but people go to the parks all the time. Councilmember Zerby noted that he smokes cigars and does not smoke them next to people in the parks and explained that he will find a corner somewhere if he wants to have one. He stated that he does not push the smoke onto other people and believes that is true for most smokers and has not seen it as a problem. He stated that he feels most tobacco users are considerate and has not seen it be a big problem. Councilmember Callies asked if that meant he felt regulation was not necessary. She stated that could be another view on this being something that a solution looking for a problem. Mayor Labadie referenced signs that you frequently see walking into buildings that say things like `Guns are banned here' and asked if this could be something that the City bans for those large scale events, such as tournaments. City Attorney Koch stated that they could but it would be best if there was some type of policy on the books. She noted that the problem would be that by having a policy and not an ordinance, they would not have the option for it to be a petty misdemeanor. Councilmember Zerby asked about the difference between a rule and a policy and what would happen if the City put a sign out in the park. CITY OF SHOREWOOD WORK SESSION COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES AUGUST 28, 2023 Page 4 of 6 City Attorney Koch explained that at a baseline they would simply communicating an expectation which may be enough for some people. She noted that they also could possibly escalate it to trespassing and prohibit them from the City's property. She explained that a petty misdemeanor is easier for officers to understand and apply, if needed. She stated that a petty misdemeanor is not technically a crime but the idea would be that it serves as a deterrent. Councilmember Sanschagrin asked if there had been any complaints about smoking in the parks. Planning Director Darling noted that she is not certain that they would have come to her, but explained that she had not seen any in the last six years. City Administrator Nevinski stated that he had also not heard any complaints about smoking in the parks. Park and Recreation Director Crossfield stated that she had not heard any complaints and noted that she had only seen it done once. Mayor Labadie asked if the Council had anyone reach out to them on this topic since it was noticed to be on the agenda. She explained that she had three people reach out to her in support of some sort of ordinance banning this activity and nobody had reached out that was against it. Councilmember Sanschagrin stated that he had also had a few people contact him that were in support of a ban. Councilmember Callies stated that she had people contact her about the change in the law, but not specifically about this proposed ordinance. She stated that people have commented that they were concerned about the odor if it is allowed in the parks. She reiterated her earlier comment questioning whether this was really a problem. Councilmember Sanschagrin questioned whether another option may be to hold off doing anything and wait and see if it becomes a problem before they put anything into place. Councilmember Callies agreed and stated that if there is not a problem she questioned why the City needed to establish this ordinance. She stated that if it is a problem, this is an action the City can take at any time and noted that it can happen relatively quickly. Mayor Labadie read aloud some of the phrases that concerned her regarding `hemp derived', `cannabis flour', and `low potency hemp edibles' because she thinks it will be very difficult for officers to know what people are having. Councilmember Zerby agreed and noted that he did not believe the City and the officers were checking everyone's tumblers and red Solo cups for alcohol. Mayor Labadie stated that she does not want these products in the parks, but there are so many aspects to drafting something that is enforceable. She stated that it also comes back to a point made by Councilmember Zerby about `why' the City would be doing this and the idea raised by others on simply waiting to see if it becomes a problem. Councilmember Zerby noted that he feels Excelsior has a different situation than Shorewood, so he understands why they took the stance that they did. CITY OF SHOREWOOD WORK SESSION COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES AUGUST 28, 2023 Page 5 of 6 Mayor Labadie agreed and noted that she felt that the people coming to the City's parks are coming for a specific purpose and not simply a hang-out spot, like the parks are in Excelsior. Councilmember Callies stated that she felt that there was reason to be concerned about this as a new product that are intoxicants, so it does feel like there should be some regulation but noted that right now, she feels they should wait and see if it is actually a problem. Councilmember Zerby noted that the Park Commission had discussed this topic and also had mixed feelings about it. He stated that they had a good discussion, but there was not a real consensus or direction at the end of the night. Park and Recreation Director Crossfield stated that the Park Commission had discussed it last week and feels their only `mild' consensus was that it should not be a complete ban and wanted it to be allowed in some spaces. She stated that they wanted there to be a designated area within the park and possibly also allowed on the trails, sidewalks, and parking lots, but not near children. Councilmember Callies stated that she has worked in other cities that have large baseball organizations and they sell beer at the parks but noted that would also be a different situation than what they have in Shorewood. Mayor Labadie stated that she has been very vocal in the past about not allowing alcohol in the parks and is proud that they do not allow it, but allowing an event to obtain a permit is a fair option. She explained that she feels it is important for people to be able to come and enjoy the parks with their families. She stated that, in theory, she would like to do the same thing with this regulation, but at the moment is concerned about the reality of its enforceability and possibly putting the officers in a very tough position. She stated that the Council did not need to take action tonight but she thinks it was good that they at least started the discussion on this topic. She suggested that they could asked Chief Tholen to come in and give them his perspective or they could also let it sit, as is, for six months and see what happens. City Administrator Nevinski stated that there are a lot of unknowns surrounding cannabis right now. He stated that he suspects with the creation of the Office of Cannabis Management they will be waiting about a year before they start to see some guidance coming out of that office. He stated that his overall message for the Council is that things are going to continue to change and evolve because there is a lot that they do not know. Councilmember Sanschagrin stated that he thinks the `why' question is important, for example they do not want those kinds of beverages because they do not want intoxicated people at the parks and this potentially creates the same issue with cannabis use. He stated that if they see it as a problem with intoxication, then they should align it with the beverage restrictions, but if it an issue related to second hand smoke, they do not know if that will be a problem or not. Councilmember Callies stated that she agreed and did not see this as an emergency where something needed to be done right now. She stated that she also was not sure it would be very productive to have the Chief come in and talk about this with the Council nor did she feel that six months would be enough time to truly be able to examine this issue. Mayor Labadie explained that she had just thrown out six months as an example. She noted that one other thing that makes her a bit hesitant is that Shorewood was the first City in the State that CITY OF SHOREWOOD WORK SESSION COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES AUGUST 28, 2023 Page 6 of 6 enacted bee friendly language in their policies and every city that followed modified their language to make it less restrictive and ultimately, Shorewood ended up finding out that their language needed tweaking. She stated that there were not many cities who have taken a stance on this issue and explained that having gone through this process with the bee friendly language, it makes her leery. Councilmember Zerby stated that he agreed and would be in favor of giving this more time. He noted that he would not be in favor of a City-wide ban, but could be in favor of a park ban of some sort. He stated that he feels it may be a better idea to plug this substance into the section of the ordinance that speaks to alcohol and add it to the list of substances that cannot be used in the parks. Mayor Labadie outlined what she felt was the consensus of the Council: to schedule a discussion at a future work session, if a problem arises otherwise, if nothing has arisen then they just plan to take another look at this in approximately one year. 3. ADJOURN Sanschagrin moved, Callies seconded, Adjourning the City Council Work Session Meeting of August 28, 2023, at 6:44 P.M. Motion passed 4/0.