05-13-24 CC WS MinutesCITY OF SHOREWOOD 5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD
CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION MEETING COUNCIL CHAMBERS
MONDAY, MAY 13, 2024 5:00 P.M.
MINUTES
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Mayor Labadie called the meeting to order at 5:00 P.M.
A. Roll Call
Present. Mayor Labadie; Councilmembers Callies, Maddy, Sanschagrin, and Zerby; City
Attorney Shepherd; City Administrator Nevinski; City Engineer Budde; Public
Works Director Morreim; and City Clerk/HR Director Thone;
Absent: None
B. Review Agenda
Sanschagrin moved, Zerby seconded, approving the agenda, as presented. Motion passed
5/0.
2. EXCELSIOR SEWER
City Administrator Nevinski shared some background and history regarding the situation where
Excelsior had overcharged the City for sewer charges. He noted that all sides believe that this
action was unintentional and reviewed mediation efforts, flow, rate, past payments, and the
proposal following the discussion that took place in November of 2023.
City Attorney Shepherd noted that with a claim like this it requires each party to make some
concessions and noted that the Statute of Limitations is a concern in this situation. He stated that
he hopes that the two cities can come to an agreement and also come to a new arrangement
moving forward.
Councilmember Zerby stated that he was part of the group put together to look for synergies to
do more cooperative things. He noted that one thing he learned through these discussions was
that Excelsior has a non-resident rate and asked about the difference between that and the
Shorewood non-resident rate that was being proposed.
City Administrator Nevinski stated that he did not have that information in front of him.
Councilmember Zerby asked about the Shorewood residents that are on this service and how
they were currently being billed.
City Administrator Nevinski stated that he believes there are a number of different arrangements
which is one of the things that as they move forward in dealing with the water agreement that
they want to look through. He stated that there may need to be further discussion with the Council
on the policy and how they want this to be handled. He explained that because the City has so
many properties that are not metered and on City water, the City charges a flat rate for sewer.
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Councilmember Zerby stated that it appears that the two sides have reached a pretty good
solution because both sides are compromising.
Mayor Labadie stated that she was part of the mediation efforts that fell apart and noted that she
was actually shocked that the two sides have gotten this close to a solution. She explained that
the last meeting resulted in the entire Excelsior team walking out in the middle of the meeting.
Councilmember Callies stated that it seems like a lot of work has gone into this since those
mediation efforts. She stated that Excelsior and Shorewood are neighbors and she felt that it was
time to resolve this and agreed that what has been proposed sounded logical.
Mayor Labadie noted that the information included in the packet tonight were only related to sewer
and not water, but thought that Excelsior wanted them lumped together. She stated that she sees
sewer and water as two very different issues.
City Administrator Nevinski stated that in talking with Excelsior they do want to try to wrap water
and sewer together and have some `package' agreements. He stated that if the Council is
comfortable with where things are heading with the sewer agreement, he can communicate that
to Excelsior but then also dive in to the water agreements more thoroughly. He stated that he
thinks that having a good review of the agreements makes a lot of sense because many things
have changed, including technology and development patterns. He noted that he did not think
there would be any harm in looking at them and updating them. He explained that he sees this as
an opportunity to improve the City's processes in these areas.
Councilmember Sanschagrin asked if this was a payment that would be due now and if this was
something the City had budgeted for.
City Administrator Nevinski stated that he believed that the payment would be made roughly right
around now. He stated that he was not sure they knew the absolute dollar amount in August when
they put the budget together. He stated that the City does have money in the Sewer Fund that
could be used for this payment and noted that he can bring additional details to the Council in the
future.
Councilmember Sanschagrin stated that he was comfortable with the proposed settlement.
Councilmember Callies asked if the Council was being asked to make a decision on moving
forward with the sewer.
City Administrator Nevinski clarified that staff was asking the Council if they were comfortable with
the proposal included in the packet to calculate rate, flow, and the settlement of the past
payments. He stated that if they were comfortable with that staff will bring forward formal sewer
agreements, a settlement agreement, and also water agreements.
Councilmember Zerby explained that he would not describe himself as `comfortable' with the
proposal, but could accept it. He asked if the intent was for staff to bring back a legal agreement
at their next meeting and then have a separate discussion on water.
City Administrator Nevinski stated that he thinks that the City needs to do a deep dive and make
sure that they have everything and that Excelsior's data aligns with the City's data. He stated that
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MAY 13, 2024
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he envisions working through some of the key points related to water at a future work session
meeting.
Councilmember Callies asked when the next meeting with Excelsior would take place in order to
talk about water. She asked if that process would take another year.
City Administrator Nevinski stated that he thinks there is momentum right now and thinks that
both sides are looking forward to getting this wrapped up as quickly as possible. He stated he is
hopeful that they will be able to bring information back to the Council sometime in the next few
months.
Mayor Labadie stated that she felt it was a good idea to get this wrapped up before the current
leadership for both cities may change. She noted that she thinks there is a good working
relationship with the current leadership and would be hesitant if things are drawn out too much
that this may change.
Councilmember Maddy asked if the City would get something signed before they cut a check to
Excelsior.
City Attorney Shepherd explained that there will be a settlement agreement that would explain
the situation and what the City was agreeing to pay and then they would cut the check to Excelsior.
3. HIRING PROCESS
City Administrator Nevinski reviewed the City's hiring and recruitment process and outlined some
of the ways that it had been handled differently based on the situation. He outlined the past typical
hiring practices and where the variation has been for vacancies at the City and reviewed items
for Council consideration as part of the discussion of when and where in the process the City
Council would be involved. He explained that staff would like to have some clarity from the Council
about positions and also to have a smooth process to follow that does not over -burden or create
confusion for the candidates.
Councilmember Callies noted that as she was looking through this information she felt it made
sense where it discussed subordinate positions where the level of Council involvement would be
`Council -light'. She stated that she did feel that the Council should be more involved on the front
end with the Department Head openings. She stated that there was a comment made in the staff
report that once finalists are identified that becomes public information and if the Council conducts
the interview it may be intimidating. She stated that, in her opinion, these individuals would be
applying for a government job and that was just kind of how things worked with the Open Meeting
law. She stated that if they were not comfortable with the Open Meeting law, this may not be the
kind of position that they should be applying for. She discussed the steps in the process and
asked if the vision was really for someone like the Finance Director to meet with the community
and staff.
City Administrator Nevinski stated that they did have this step with the Parks and Recreation
Manager position and the panel was not doing the same level of evaluation that the Council or
Department Heads did. He explained that he felt that there was a need to build some relationships
as part of that process which was why they had added that step. He stated that he agreed that a
position like the Finance Director may not need a community stakeholder panel.
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Councilmember Maddy stated that he would agree with the sentiment shared by Councilmember
Callies that if someone interviewing for a Department Head position was not comfortable
answering questions from the Council during a public meeting they were not ready to be a
Department Head. He stated that he would be comfortable keeping that and using staff judgement
on whether the position would warrant community involvement or not. He noted that he felt the
staff's relationship with a new hire was much more important than the Council's relationship with
them. He explained that he did not see any controversy with how the City ended up handling the
hiring process for Park and Recreation Manager Czech.
Mayor Labadie stated that she agreed and really liked having two Councilmembers on the
Personnel Committee, but understands that they can no longer do that due to the Open Meeting
law. She explained that she liked having the Council involved at the forefront of the process but
did not see the need for community involvement for a position such as Finance Director or Public
Works Director. She noted that she thought it was actually pushing a bit getting partnership and
community involvement for the Park and Recreation position but understood why it was done
because the City had Twila Grout in that position for so long. She explained that what ended up
happening was that the Council expectations and the expectations of the individual that filled that
position were just not the same. She stated that this is a City employee and felt it was a decision
that should be made by the City but did like having staff heavily involved in bringing finalists to
the Council.
Councilmember Callies stated that she feels that the Personnel Committee could be called
something else and suggested that they could keep that group but just post them as public
meetings. She stated that she thinks it is a question of whether the Council wants to meet as a
whole for the initial interviews or whether they support having a few of the Councilmembers
participate during the initial round of interviews.
Councilmember Zerby stated that usually the staff would get involved at the forefront when the
resumes come in. He stated that he thinks that the Council has looked to staff to cull the applicants
and make the initial cuts so the strongest candidates are brought before the Council. He stated
that perhaps there is a way for the Council to weigh in, on paper, at that point to cull it down and
then conduct the interviews after they all tally which candidates they like. He stated that he was
unaware that if an employee left and there was a payout that it would effect the salary of the
incoming position. He asked if he had read that information correctly on the hiring and recruiting
handout.
City Administrator Nevinski stated that he did not believe that was correct.
City Clerk/HR Director Thone stated that it would not necessarily effect the salary, but if the
position is filled within the budget year, it will affect the City's budget but noted that this has not
been an issue for the City.
Councilmember Zerby noted that the way it was worded as `budget for position' says to him that
it effects the budget for the incoming position and not the overall budget.
Councilmember Maddy suggested that it could be clarified to stated that it could effect that years
budget for the position.
City Clerk/HR Director Thone explained that this was really just intended to make sure that the
Council understood that, from a financial perspective, there may be costs associated with one
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individual leaving and also costs with the new hire. She clarified that these costs would not reduce
the salary for the position.
Councilmember Callies stated that perhaps it should say that it may increase that years budget
so it was clear. She noted that the attachment that shows the hiring and recruitment process was
simply a checklist and was not the actual policy.
Councilmember Zerby suggested that they reverse the position of the statements `Fill existing
position' and `Update position with redefined duties or requirements as applicable'.
Councilmember Sanschagrin stated that he also felt that #4 and #5, should be bumped up to
become #1 and #2.
City Administrator Nevinski expressed his understanding of that point but noted that on tonight's
regular meeting agenda, the Council will accept the resignation of a staff member but not
immediately approve to fill that position. He stated that staff has been having some conversations
about what that position should look like. He explained that, in this particular case, the Council
would actually only be doing step #4, accepting the resignation because staff wants to work on
refining that position/duties before they ask for approval of the recruitment process. He stated that
when it comes to hiring Department Heads, he suggested that the process be something along
the lines of when they bring the resignation to the Council and ask for approval to begin the
recruitment process that they outline what that looks like and noted that it may be different
depending on the specific position. He gave the example of a position that was very public facing
that the Council may decide that they want involvement from a stakeholder panel. He stated that
the Council can discuss the process at that time and noted that he liked the suggestion by
Councilmember Callies that they could just post the interview as a meeting which may be a happy
medium so it is not as intense of a process, but Council could be part of the process to the degree
they want to be.
Councilmember Sanschagrin asked if staff would pose the question to the Council for each
opening on whether they wanted to have the full Council involved or just the smaller committee.
City Administrator Nevinski explained that he would probably look to the Council for their feedback
about what they thought of the position and the Council's goals.
Councilmember Zerby stated that in his business career, recruiters never really worked well for
him and noted that he has never really been happy with the candidates when he has used a
recruiter. He stated that if the City is going to use a recruiter he felt that the Council needed to be
involved in making that decision because they also need to understand the financial implications.
He stated that when someone decides to leave, often times you can do an exit interview and find
out why they are leaving. He explained that he always likes to know what may have gone wrong,
for example, did the job description not meet what they were expected to actually do, or did the
Council have expectations that were too high. He stated that it would be nice if there could be
some type of feedback loop when someone decides to leave.
City Clerk/HR Director Thone stated that the City does offer exit interviews, but it is up to the
individual leaving on whether they choose to do it or not. She stated that she would estimate that
about thirty to forty percent of people choose to have an exit interview.
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Councilmember Zerby noted that he felt it was a critical component for the Department Head
positions.
City Clerk/HR Director Thone stated that they encourage participation in the exit interview, but
reiterated that it was completely up to the individual. She noted that she felt that there were pros
and cons to exit interviews and also to providing negative feedback when someone is still in the
job market.
City Administrator Nevinski stated that in this environment it has been somewhat difficult to
discuss some of the employment situations because they have needed to be thoughtful in their
process and words. He noted that generally he felt staff could try to provide some of that feedback
to the Council.
Councilmember Zerby stated that he understands that there are personal dynamics involved
which would be confidential, but in his past experience, there have been instances where they
discover things through this process.
Mayor Labadie stated that in recent years the only position that the City has used a recruiting
agency helping with was the City Administrator position and explained that she felt that process
was helpful.
Councilmember Callies stated that she did not think the City could have gone through that process
without the recruitment agency, but admitted that she was not happy with that particular process.
She explained she was perfectly happy with staff coming up with a list of finalists and at that point
the Council can decide if the subsequent interviews will be handled by the Council as a whole or
a sub group of the Council.
Councilmember Maddy stated that he was not comfortable having a sub group of elected officials
whittling down the candidate pool. He stated that the current five Councilmembers work pretty
well together, but there was no guarantee that is how it would always be. He explained that if just
two of the Councilmembers can filter out applicants, he did not think that was the best approach.
City Administrator Nevinski stated that as they whittle it down to the final candidate pool, they look
at a lot of things and didn't think it was fair to ask the Council, as policy makers to look at those
types of things. He stated that to Councilmember Maddy's point, having a few Councilmembers
make those decisions feels awkward and stated that what he had proposed for the process was
that this would be the slate of finalists in a public meeting which is where the Council would plug
into the interview process. He explained that staff can take care of all the nitty gritty details.
Councilmember Maddy clarified that he wanted to make sure that the Council did not give any
authority to less than a quorum of the Council.
Mayor Labadie stated that this had been done in the past.
Councilmember Callies stated that it was only a recommendation from the Personnel Committee
and was not a decision being made by that smaller group of the Council. She asked if
Councilmember Maddy was saying that if Council was going to be involved at all, it should be the
full Council.
Councilmember Maddy stated that he is what he would like to see happen.
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Councilmember Callies stated that she understood Councilmember Maddy's point but noted that
she thinks part of the problem in the past may have been scheduling.
Councilmember Maddy stated that if a Councilmember does not show up, that would be fine and
explained that he was just uncomfortable choosing two Councilmembers to filter the candidates.
City Administrator Nevinski explained that he foresees the process as staff reviewing and scoring
the candidates and would also conduct the initial interviews. He stated that they have been doing
that via Team or Zoom because it seems to be the most convenient want to conduct the
interviews. He explained that for the Park and Recreation Manager position staff had done initial
interviews this way with ten individuals and the Council, as one panel, then saw the final three
candidates.
Councilmember Sanschagrin stated that he likes the idea of flexibility.
Mayor Labadie stated that she agreed as long as the flexibility did not slow down the overall
process. She explained that having the stakeholders in the community involved made her feel like
the person that is ultimately selected may feel a bit beholden to those groups that recommended
them. She stated that she understood why the City had used this process for this last position,
but going forward she may not be in favor of it.
Councilmember Sanschagrin stated that he felt the probation period was an important thing to
highlight as part of the hiring process. He suggested that they flush this out a bit more in terms of
what it actually looks like and explained that he would like it to be its own step in the process.
Councilmember Maddy stated that he knows that the Council did the probationary review with
City Administrator Nevinski but asked how it was handled for other positions.
City Administrator Nevinski explained that he would be handling it for the positions that were his
direct reports and for the more mid -line positions it would be handled by their supervisor.
Councilmember Sanschagrin suggested that some of these details be included in the process
description.
Councilmember Callies asked if conditional offers would be made before it comes to the Council.
City Clerk/HR Director Thone stated yes that conditional offers are made as one of the conditions
is approval by the council. It is likely Council may have interviewed the candidate, and had a role
in the selection process, for example, if it was a Department Head position.
City Administrator Nevinski explained some of the things that usually happen with a conditional
job offer.
City Clerk/HR Director Thone explained that the hiring and recruiting process will be a bit different
for every position and what was included in the packet tonight was just a rough draft of the entire
process and designed to show the bare bones steps that are taken in the overall process. She
suggested that the Council read it as more of a checklist because there is a lot of detail that was
not included in this document.
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The Council discussed the hiring process for the upcoming Finance Director position and gave
direction to staff that there did not need to be multi -round community interviews for this position.
They discussed the interview process on how involved the Council should be and came to
consensus that if one or two Councilmembers were involved in the interview process for the
Finance Director position along with staff that it be Councilmember Sanschagrin and
Councilmember Zerby.
Mayor Labadie asked if both Councilmembers could be involved without creating any legal issues.
City Attorney Shepherd stated that he did not see a problem with it because they were not creating
a Personnel Committee and were just establishing two ad hoc individuals to sit on an interview
panel.
4. ADJOURN
Sanschagrin moved, Callies seconded, Adjourning the City Council Work Session Meeting
of May 13, 2024, at 6:17 P.M. Motion passed 5/0.