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01-15-19 Joint Planning and Park Commission Meeting MinutesCITY OF SHOREWOOD COUNCIL CHAMBERS JOINT PLANNING AND PARK COMMISSION MEETING 5755 COUNTRY CLUB ROAD TUESDAY, JANUARY 15, 2019 7:30 P.M. MINUTES CONVENE JOINT PLANNING AND PARK COMMISSION WORK SESSION MEETING Chair Maddy called the meeting to order at 7:40 P.M. ROLL CALL Present: Planning Commission Chair Maddy; Planning Commissioners Gorham, Davis, Riedel, and Eggenberger; Park Commissioner Vassar; Planning Director Darling; Councilmember Johnson and Councilmember Siakel Absent: Park Commissioners Mangold, Ashmore, Barr and Rock APPROVAL OF AGENDA The Joint Planning and Park Commission had no changes to the proposed agenda. 1. HISTORY OF FIRE LANE USAGE Planning Director Darling gave a brief overview of recent discussions regarding use of fire lanes as outlined in her staff report. She gave a history of the use of fire lanes and how they originated. She reviewed the current fire lane locations and the type of access that is allowed. She noted that over time, private improvements have begun to creep into the fire lanes. She explained that the Code does not allow the fire lanes to be used by motorized vehicles, except for the fire lane directly adjacent to Crescent Beach. She stated that this fire lane allows it to be used for snowmobiles during the winter and parking of vehicles near the beach the rest of the year. She noted that the Code prohibits motor vehicle use between the hours of 10:00 P.M. and 7:00 A.M., Sunday through Thursday, and between 11:00 P.M. and 7:00 A.M. on Friday and Saturday and limits the speeds to 10 mph on public property. She stated that she had attached some information about what other cities have allowed with regard to vehicles. Park Commissioner Vassar asked about Crescent Beach and past issues with maintenance over the past year. Councilmember Siakel stated that half of Crescent Beach is in the City and the other half is in Tonka Bay. She explained that the City has had an agreement with Tonka Bay regarding maintenance and the City had approved a certain dollar amount every year for Tonka Bay to take care of the maintenance of the beach. She noted that the City also splits the cost of a summer lifeguard with Tonka Bay. Planning Commissioner Riedel stated that this issue is potentially complex because these fire lanes became public access points and in 1985, they were officially declared for public acces, however, there does not appear to have been markers or maintenance done on many of the fire lanes. He stated that it appears as though many people are not even aware that these fire lanes exist. He asked whether other areas of City land are marked and designated. He asked if the fire lanes were officially considered park land because of the 1985 ordinance. CITY OF SHOREWOOD PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING JANUARY 15, 2019 Page 2 of 9 Planning Director Darling stated that the City owns quite a bit of property but most of the parcels are compromised and frequently contain wetlands. She explained that typically these parcels do not have markers on them unless they were part of a plat. She stated that the fire lanes are considered public grounds. Chair Maddy noted that he does not believe that there is anything in the fire code that would consider these fire lanes so the City could decide to get rid of them without causing any problems from a fire standpoint. Planning Director Darling stated that she agreed and the term fire lane is more of a historic name and the Council could change the name to something like public access points. Commissioner Riedel asked if there were any provisions from the DNR regarding public access points to lakes, such as minimum width. Planning Director Darling stated that she was not aware of any provisions from the DNR with regard to public access points to lakes. Planning Commissioner Gorham asked if there were any fire lanes that stick out in Planning Director Darling's mind as more of a maintenance and awareness issue where its use would dramatically change. He noted that the access point on Grant Lorenz appears as though it could easily be cleaned up to make a truly useable public access point. Planning Director Darling asked if he meant paving or putting down a gravel road. She stated that some of these fire lanes are more suited for pedestrian access because of the topography. She stated that several of the overgrown public access points would require tree removal in order to clean them up for vehicle access but would only require minor clearing for pedestrian access. Commissioner Riedel stated that he feels it is problematic to have public access points that are not visually recognizable, known or maintained. Planning Director Darling noted that she had attached two letters from residents to the report, but noted that she had received more after the packet went out and will make sure the Commission receives all of the letters submitted in the future. Chair Maddy reminded residents that they will read every letter sent in and that tonight's meeting was just for advisement and discussion with no decisions being made. 2. PUBLIC TESTIMONY Duncan Storlie, 5375 Eureka Road, stated that he had lived in the City for 46 years and lives about three houses away from the fire lane from Birch Bluff to the lake. He noted that when he first moved in there were three or four families that got permission to build a dock for fishing purposes which was maintained by the group but after a few years it went by the wayside. He stated that over the years he had tried to maintain the fire lane a bit by removing fallen trees. He noted that there used to be signs posted, but pretty much everything has gone away now and the neighbors on each side have kind of taken it over as their own property. He stated they have mowed parts of the area and thrown their leaves and brush onto the fire lane. He stated that there used to be a stone stairway down to the lake but that has fallen apart. He stated that he thinks it is important for the City to maintain the fire lanes as well as post signs or somehow mark them as public access points to the lake. He stated that he thinks many of the adjacent CITY OF SHOREWOOD PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING JANUARY 15, 2019 Page 3 of 9 property owners just see the fire lanes as part of their own property. He gave the example of a home owner on Grant Lorenz that has planted arborvitae that he feels will fill the whole fire lane. He stated that these are useful pieces of public property and the City should take care of them. Mark Bongard, 26260 Birch Bluff Road, stated that he lives adjacent to the Grant Lorenz fire lane. He stated that when they bought the house, they did their due diligence and came to talk to the City and knew that the fire lane was a limited use fire lane. He stated that while they were building their house, they noticed snowmobiles using it, but they assumed once they actually moved in the use would slow down because the home was occupied. He stated that the use did not stop and increased when the lake froze over. He stated that there is a lot of coming and going at all hours of the day and night. He explained that they had built their house assuming that this was a pedestrian only fire lane so they put all of the bedrooms on the side of the house closest to the fire lane. He stated that they are sometimes awakened four times a night from cars and snowmobiles using the fire lane. He stated that as the weather changes and melts and refreezes and the ice heaves, it is tough for people to get through without revving their engines. He stated that they had assumed that the City would be enforcing the use of the fire lane, but that has not been the case. He stated that he put up signs of his own and spoke to the City asking if he had to take them down and was told he did not have to. He stated that he does not believe that the fire lane is his or that he has a right to take it over as part of his property, however he has spent a lot of time cleaning it up. He stated that they fully support the current terms of the fire lane as a pedestrian only access to the lake. He clarified that he was not the one who planted the arborvitae. Park Commissioner Vassar confirmed that the times Mr. Bongard found most bothersome was the winter use of the fire lane. Chair Maddy asked if Mr. Bongard had noticed any parking issues during any time of the year Mr. Bongard stated that there are a lot of vehicles who park there. He stated that they have had people come to their home asking them to move the vehicles when there have been some triple -parked and it is people out on the lake and not their personal vehicles. Chair Maddy stated that there should not be vehicles parked on the fire lane, but he would like to know if there were a lot of people parking on Birch Bluff Road. Mr. Bongard stated that he has not seen too much of that and noted that occasionally people will park to drop off a canoe or kayak and then take their vehicle somewhere else. He reiterated that he supports the summer usage of the fire lane. Tim Leester, 26355 Oak Ridge Circle, stated that he has been a resident since 1993 and before that lived in Excelsior since 1971. He thanked the City for taking the time for a discussion about public lake access. He asked that the City to consider amending Fire Lane #3 to become a Level Two fire lane. He stated that would support the access hours and speed limits that were mentioned earlier. Tom Lesser, 26245 Birch Bluff Road, stated that he lives directly across the road from the Grant Lorenz fire lane. He stated that he has lived there five years and having lake access is a great benefit. He stated that he also hears a lot of snowmobile traffic at night and it is sometimes disruptive which is why he has problems with motorized vehicle access. He asked who would police the use if the City allowed the usage for certain hours of the day at certain speed limits. CITY OF SHOREWOOD PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING JANUARY 15, 2019 Page 4 of 9 Cathy Bongard, 26260 Birch Bluff Road, stated that she feels the impression has gotten out that they are against people using the Grant Lorenz access and they are not. She stated that they have enjoyed watching people walk to the lake with their dogs and children to access the lake year-round. She stated that what is not enjoyable is the snowmobiles because they are the loudest and much of the time are coming back and forth late at night. She reiterated her husband's comment that they do not think of this as their personal property. She stated that they have been maintaining it because it had gotten very overgrown with buckthorn and debris. She stated that it is the motorized vehicles, the noise and the time of day that causes the most problems. She stated that maintaining public access to the lake is very important. She noted that the access on Eureka Road needs some work because the cliff there seems very dangerous. She stated that there is a home for sale right next to the beach which she sees as an opportunity for the City to purchase it and install a public fishing dock in that location. Diane Tessari, 5375 Eureka Road, stated that she has lived there since 2002 and has used the steep access at the end of Eureka Road and appreciates the public access points to the lake. She stated that she feels it is important to maintain the access points and not give any of them up. She stated that she does believe there is a great need for signage that outlines permissible activities as well as penalties for not following the rules. She stated that she also thinks the hours of operation need to be made very clear. She stated that allowing motorized vehicle access at Crescent Beach is sufficient and does not think people having to drive a few additional blocks to avoid disturbing residential areas is a hardship. Cheryl LeBrian, 4790 Lakeway Terrace, stated that she has lived there for 35 or 40 years. She stated that she believes that Lakeway Terrace on Lake William is a completely different situation than Lake Minnetonka. She stated that on Lake William there are no speed boats or noise. She stated that she thinks the ideas for signage, clearing and rules makes a lot of sense for the access points on Lake Minnetonka, but does not make sense for Lake William. She stated that the Lake William fire lane #10 has many old oak trees with a sixty -foot drop off and the street nearby is very narrow, so if people wanted to park and walk down that lane to the lake, she does not think fire trucks could get past. She stated that there is parking where the old Lyman Lodge used to be located that people use to park when they want to access the trail. She asked who owns the land that goes around this area on the Lake Minnetonka side. Planning Director Darling stated that is within another city. Chair Maddy noted that staff can check the County website when they are researching this item. Ms. LeBrian stated that if the City wanted to do anything on Lake William then this area already has a little baby gravel parking lot that people are using and the lake is easily accessible in this area because there is no grade change. She stated that they do not want to see the old oak trees cleared and signage posted all over. She asked that the City acknowledge that Lake William is completely different that Lake Minnetonka. She stated that at access point #8 a house was just torn down and it looks like they are going to try to put up two homes. She asked where the fire lane was in relation to this project. Planning Director Darling noted that the fire lane is adjacent to this project. Ms. LeBrian asked how the property owners would know if someone was proposing to buy one of the fire lanes on Lake William. CITY OF SHOREWOOD PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING JANUARY 15, 2019 Page 5 of 9 Planning Director Darling stated that if someone proposed that the City vacate the public easements, it would have to be through a public forum so the affected property owners in the vicinity would be notified, which would usually be the adjacent properties. Ms. LeBrian stated that the rumor mill is saying that the people who tore down the house are planning to approach the City about acquiring the fire lane. Mike Blomquist, 5425 Grant Lorenz Road, stated that he has lived here for five years and before the new house was built there had been no issues with snowmobiles or four -wheelers accessing the lake. He stated that he has never been woken up by a snowmobile or four -wheeler. He stated that Lake Minnetonka is a beautiful lake but it is one of the busiest in the Midwest. He stated that he thinks it is wrong to cut off access to the lake because everybody has been using the access up until when the Bongards moved in. He stated that he feels it is too beautiful of an area to cut off from the public. He confirmed that the Commissioners had gotten the slides and pictures that he had submitted with his letter. He noted that when he purchased his home five years ago, the realty description said that he would have fire lane access to take his snowmobile out onto the lake. Chair Maddy noted that fire lane #3 was never allowed to have motorized vehicles. Mr. Blomquist stated that no one ever questioned that or thought that is was only for non - motorized vehicles, even the South Minnetonka police officer that he spoke to. He stated that now that he knows the law, he takes his four -wheeler down to Crescent Beach to go out onto the lake and go fishing. He stated that he would like to see this fire lane changed to a Class #2. Tim Leester, 26355 Oak Ridge Circle, stated that he thinks it would be more disruptive to travel on a snowmobile down along the road to Crescent Beach than it would be to access the lake at fire lane #3. Chair Maddy closed the public testimony at 8:39 P.M. 3. DISCUSS FIRE LANE USAGE, DIRECTION TO STAFF AND/OR RECOMMENDATIONS TO CITY COUNCIL Planning Commissioner Davis stated that she would like to see the City survey the fire lanes and install markers so the City knows exactly where the boundaries are and what things may be encroaching. She stated that she thinks the surveying needs to be completed before the City can decide what to do with the property. Councilmember Siakel stated that on Birch Bluff Road there are four fire lanes within a half mile. She noted that she lives on Birch Bluff and noted that the owners prior to the Bongards only lived there during the summer months, which is probably why there weren't earlier issues or complaints about snowmobiles using this access point. Planning Commissioner Riedel asked why so many fire lanes were created in such close proximity to each other. Planning Director Darling noted that in her research it appears as though there were even more fire lanes in the past and some of them have been vacated. She stated that past Councils and Commissions have prioritized the fire lanes that they felt were important to keep and maintain. CITY OF SHOREWOOD PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING JANUARY 15, 2019 Page 6 of 9 Planning Commissioner Eggenberger stated that he would like to get rid of the term fire lanes and call them something else. He stated that he would also like to have a discussion about whether they should be made park land. He stated that he also thinks it is important to discuss whether motorized access will be allowed as well as the hours of operation. He stated that he thinks part of the problem is that people do not know what the hours are. Planning Commissioner Davis stated that she thinks there are certain people that will not follow the rules even if they know the hours. Chair Maddy stated that the City could choose to put physical barriers in place that would keep out snowmobiles and allow access to pedestrians. Planning Commissioner Davis stated that she feels there is no reason for a car to drive down any of these fire lanes and certainly not the Grant Lorenz fire lane. She stated that she has lived in the City for 40 years and remembers when there used to be bollards there so a car could not drive down the access point. Chair Maddy stated that he agrees that if the City decides there are no motorized vehicles allowed, then some sort of physical barrier will have to be put into place. Planning Commissioner Riedel confirmed that currently the only access that allows motorized vehicles, including snowmobiles, is Crescent Beach. He stated that there is a larger issue of signage and whether it should go on all public access points or just the ones that are used and noted that the Lake William access points also need to be considered. Planning Commissioner Eggenberger stated that he agreed with Ms. LeBrian that the Lake William access points need to be considered apart from the Lake Minnetonka access points. Planning Commissioner Riedel stated that he agreed. Planning Commissioner Davis suggested that conservation be considered for those access points on Lake William, but noted that it would raise the question of maintenance. Planning Commissioner Riedel stated that he questions if the access points that allowed motorized vehicles were spread out to other points whether that would cut down the traffic and noise at the Grant Lorenz location. Planning Commissioner Davis stated that she has lived in the City longer than there have been snowmobile ordinances in place and feels that there is a reason that the City has gotten strict about snowmobiles. Chair Maddy stated that it seems very clear that the snowmobiles are the problem but asked what their options are for access if the City decides that this is a residential area and snowmobiles have no business accessing the lake by driving between two homes. Planning Director Darling explained that snowmobiles can access the lake through Crescent Beach as well as other communities in the area that have motorized vehicle access. Planning Commissioner Davis stated that she met two snowmobilers one night at Lord Fletcher's who explained to her how incredibly difficult it is to get from Waconia to Lake Minnetonka. CITY OF SHOREWOOD PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING JANUARY 15, 2019 Page 7 of 9 Ms. Bongard stated that she knows that snowmobiles are allowed to drive along the edge of the road and asked if four -wheelers were also legal to travel on the edge of the road. Chair Maddy asked if the City had a specific snowmobile ordinance or if it also covered four - wheelers. Planning Director Darling stated that she would have to check. Councilmember Johnson stated that with regard to snowmobiles using the roads, the City ordinance states it is not allowed except when going to the closest place of entry to access the lake. Chair Maddy stated that he wanted to assure residents that the access points are a valued asset to the City and does not think anyone is looking at closing all of them and thinks the City would like to find a way for people to use them while still being respectful of the areas where the fire lanes are located. He stated that he thinks the first step is to survey all ten of the fire lanes and then take a look at what the City wants them to look like. He stated that he did not think Lake William needed to have four fire lanes and suggested that perhaps the City look into putting some of them into a conservation or selling them to adjacent property owners. Planning Commissioner Eggenberger stated that he would also like to have a discussion about the pros and cons of making them park land. Planning Commissioner Riedel stated that the options are doing nothing with the fire lanes that are unused, or put up signage indicating that they are public access. He stated that the City should also consider putting up barriers if the use of motorized vehicles is not allowed. Planning Commissioner Davis stated that she would like to see a physical barrier installed on Grant Lorenz to prevent cars and trucks from driving down to the lake. Planning Commissioner Riedel stated that he feels that everything as written from 1985 is fine, but needs to be managed, as well as signs put up, and it be somehow enforced. Park Commissioner Vassar stated that there will also need to be a discussion about who will maintain these access points. Chair Maddy asked if the group felt the need to change the categories and include a conservation category for some of the fire lanes on Lake William. Planning Commissioner Riedel stated that perhaps one of the new categories for the Lake William area is for a new category that states you are allowed to walk across the fire lane. He stated that it could be clear that the City would not maintain it or clear the brush but is available for pedestrian use. Planning Director Darling asked if the Commission was asking her to craft a definition for lesser usage than the current Level 1. Planning Commissioner Riedel stated that he is suggesting the City tweak the current definitions and say, for the low use areas, that this is something that is dedicated as public land and you are allowed to walk across it but that is all. He stated that he does think it is very important to have all ten fire lanes surveyed and staked. CITY OF SHOREWOOD PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING JANUARY 15, 2019 Page 8 of 9 Councilmember Siakel asked if the City had any surveys on file already. Planning Director Darling stated that she had a survey done for fire lane 1 but other than that she has not found any surveys in the files. Mr. Storlie stated that at the Eureka Road fire lane there used to be two fence posts and a cable. He explained that the cable is gone and the posts may still be there but hidden by some of the debris. He is not sure if they are official survey markers or just used by someone to mark it. He stated that the area has been used by the neighborhood to dump leaves and brush. He suggested that there be a designation called Permanent Green Space that only allows pedestrian foot traffic. Chair Maddy stated that there also should be consideration of changing the term from fire lane to something like public access ways. Planning Commissioner Eggenberger stated that if these areas are changed to park land, he does not think new designations will be needed. Planning Commissioner Davis stated that if these parcels became park land, she questioned whether the Park Commission could take them on and afford it. Chair Maddy stated that rather than creating a new designation or designating them as park land, perhaps it becomes more of an outlot that the City owns. Planning Director Darling stated that most of these are public rights -of -way. Planning Commissioner Eggenberger reiterated that he would like to see some of these melded into the parks because it is one less category to keep track of and maintain. Planning Commissioner Davis stated that there is only one member of the Parks Commission here, so she is not sure what their thoughts will be. Councilmember Siakel stated that she thinks putting this on the Parks Commission is a lot and their current budget would not support taking these on. Park Commissioner Vassar stated that there are some big things coming up for the Park Commission and taking this one would make other projects within the City more challenging. Ms. LeBrian asked if there was a way to have the Lake William fire lanes be turned into outlots. She stated that if they were sold to adjoining property owners what the tax value would be to the City. Planning Director Darling noted that the reason that fire lane 7 was an outlot was because there was an exchange of land. She stated that she does not foresee the same thing being able to happen with fire lanes 8, 9, and 10. She stated that if they were vacated, or incorporated into an existing lot, there would be no additional tax value to the City. She stated that what she is hearing the Planning and Park Commission say is that they would to take the existing three classifications and revise them into three new classifications. She noted that one would be pedestrian only, the next would be similar to what the current class 1 is, and the last category would allow for vehicles, parking and swimming access, which would be similar to the current Crescent Beach access. She asked whether the Commission would like a fourth category to allow for snowmobile access. CITY OF SHOREWOOD PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING JANUARY 15, 2019 Page 9 of 9 Planning Commissioner Riedel noted that currently the Eureka access point has the dock, which makes it a class 3. Planning Director Darling stated that the resident has stated that there has not been a dock at that location for many years, but it could still be included as an option for the future if residents want to take it over again. Chair Maddy asked if the Commission wanted to even allow motorized vehicles or hold off on that discussion until the surveys have been completed. The Consensus of the Commission was to wait discuss motorized vehicles and hours of operation until after some of the survey facts have been gathered. The Commission discussed that hours of operation for pedestrians are not really needed because people should be able to walk out onto the lake at midnight if they want to and would not be disturbing anyone. Chair Maddy suggested that hours of operation be discussed during the second round with the survey information. Planning Commissioner Riedel suggested that members of both the Planning and the Park Commission should physically go out to each site after they are surveyed. Chair Maddy asked what the Commission would like to do about private owners who have placed things in the fire lanes. Planning Director Darling stated that she believes this is something the City will need to address in the future. 4. ADJOURNMENT Davis moved, Riedel seconded, adjourning the Planning Commission Meeting of January 15, 2019, at 9:20 P.M. Motion passed 5/0.